Today on Co-parenting Beyond Conflict, I am honored to welcome a very special guest whose work has profoundly shaped my own healing journey, as well as that of countless others. Dr. Ramani is a licensed clinical psychologist, a best-selling author, and one of the world's foremost experts on narcissism and high-conflict personalities. Her groundbreaking book, It's Not You, is out in bookstores today. and her immensely popular YouTube channel with over 1.8 million subscribers is a great resource for co-parents around the world. Today, we'll talk about how co-parents facing difficult dynamics can cope with what at times seems like the impossible situation. I'm really excited to share this interview with you. I think it contains a lot of helpful content for co-parents. Let's dive in. Dr. Ramani, I just want to first say just how much your videos were so helpful to me. early on in my co-parenting journey. And I just want to say thank you for creating that resource and being that shining light and just how grateful I am that you're on the podcast today to speak to us about co-parenting. Thank you, Sam. I mean, I really appreciate that. I, for the longest time, Saul, no one's had access to this kind of information or knowledge and, and so many people blame themselves and it put them at a market disadvantage, most pointedly at as parents because they think I've got to be doing something wrong. But these are parents who are often doing many things right, but because nothing made sense and frankly, I don't think enough therapists talk about this. We don't talk about it enough in graduate school. This idea of how these personality styles show up and why they're so difficult to spot when we're in a relationship because there are actually what feel like a lot of good moments. I think we are in a world where we want things to be all bad for them to qualify as not being healthy, but that's just not how people were. Right. Well, you have this situation where you're in this relationship with someone and you discover it's not working and you say, well, this relationship is no longer right for me, for us, and I want to end the relationship. But when you have kids, right, there's this idea that the relationship can't end in some way or it has to shift. I think it gets to be challenging with kids in so, so many ways, right? Because listen. You know, the million dollar question, and I don't think we're ever going to get a satisfactory answer to it through the data is, what's worse for a child being raised by parents who have disdain, dislike, contempt, or even frank hostility towards each other, or just intensely dislike each other, or growing up in a home and staying like that, or growing up with the parents having split up, right? I remember a woman saying to me once, it stayed with me because it was almost like the living lab we wanted to hear this in. She had said it was a group of women, probably 15 of them in the group, in a support group therapy kind of thing. And she had said how all of them were going through these really, really difficult, manipulative, painful, expensive divorce processes. And half of them, so half of them were and half of them weren't. They all had antagonistic, narcissistic spouses. That was the one uniform thing, okay? Half left, half did not. And what was fascinating for her, because she was still on the fence, was there was no right path. The people who had split up said, it's so nice to have moments of peace, right? And knowing that there could be a different future, but this is, I'm constantly on pins and needles, wondering how the kids are doing alone with them, and things are getting forgotten, and homework's not getting done. It's really destabilizing for the kids. And then the other group were saying, my kids are growing up in sheer misery. So there, my point's all in this is that I think everyone's looking for what the right path is and they don't think that's the right question. I think it's what path in your given situation might cause the least fallout because no matter what there's going to be fallout. Yeah, that brings me to this concept that you present in your book, It's Not You, right? Where you talk about this idea of letting go of closure, that in co-parenting, there's like no satisfying conclusion to disagreements, especially when you're dealing with narcissists. How can co-parents let go of this need for closure and focus on healthier ways to move forward? I don't know that we could ever guide someone to let go of what is such a basic need, which is closure. I think it's letting go of the idea that it will ever happen. And so there's a difference. There's a difference because I think acknowledging that need for closure is a very human need. It's a very healing need. And it is for that reason that the trauma always sort of is like a little needling pain that never quite goes away. If you look at Judith Herman's work on repair after trauma. when you don't get that sense of resolution or justice, it makes it harder. There's no two ways about it. So when I work with folks on this, I'll say that desire for closure is so human and it's one more grief to recognize you're not going to get it because you're not going to most likely get it. And so then it's navigating this sense of that, you know, because I think people might even say, I don't even feel necessary hostility to this person. Like this is just not the relationship I want. However, the narcissistic person may be expressing a lot of hostility, then you sort of feel you're getting pulled into the mud. But I think another challenge that people have in antagonistic relationship breakups and divorces of any kind is that they want to understand the why. Why did you do this? Why did you behave like this? Why did you cheat? Why did you lie? Why did you any of it? And there's one more piece of the closure equation. You're not going to get that explanation. Because to be able to do that, a person requires self-reflective capacity. And that self-reflective capacity for someone who's antagonistic, to plumb those depths means activating too much shame, which would be too uncomfortable. Had that capacity been there all along, you probably wouldn't be in this situation. And so understanding what's simply not possible and then grieving that lack of closure, that means people can conserve their energy and remain focused on the central issue here, which is the well-being of your children. In co-parenting situations, a lot of people, and the courts included in this, tend to just create a blanket statement that you should be collaborative, you should work together, you should forget about the past and just move on. And in some of your recent videos, I think you've mentioned about parallel parenting and how that can be applied very well in these sorts of dynamics. Could you talk to us a bit about parallel parenting for co-parents that might be facing these types of relationships? So I think one of the, I want to go back to your first point, which is that the courts and everyone else is saying, just put it all behind you. Listen, I think a lot of times the healthier person in these proceedings is saying, okay, let's put it behind us and let's move forward in the best interest of the child. People with antagonistic, more difficult personalities can't. That vindictiveness, vindictive, can't let it go piece is very characteristic of that personality style. So even if somebody says, fine. I will move forward, I want to do what's best for the kids, that's simply not going to happen. So the recommendation that's being given by courts and mediators is simply not informed by an awareness of the personalities involved. Okay, so then that takes us to co-parenting is the wrong word, because by definition, co- implies cooperation. It requires elaboration. It requires two things, two people doing something together and communicating about it. And so parallel. parenting gets at this idea of you're doing your part, they're doing their part. And I think that, again, we come back to this concept of injustice solve, which is this idea of many times people who are going through these kinds of really difficult, manipulative, antagonistic kinds of divorce situations find themselves having to take on a far greater burden. They will get kids without homework done who are a mess being dropped off after a weekend or... birthday parties were forgotten. And so you're on one parent side, they'll feel like they're having to so much be sort of the enforcer and the schedule keeper and the doer and the fixer. And to which I say, yep, that's exactly right. And that is how it is. And there's no version of this where that's going to be justly distributed. And so parallel parenting really ties into this idea of the true north that I write and talk about, which is you got to have your eye very clearly. on what's going to navigate you to the best possible outcome for what matters here in the case of now we're talking about parenting is your children. And yep, that means you are going to be doing more of the load and no one's going to see it and it's going to feel awful, which is why you need support or therapy. And sometimes you are the nuisance problem, difficult parent because you're the one pushing the homework, you're the one pushing the schedules, you're the one having to second and first, second, third, double check everything over and over again. So it can feel very imbalanced, but it's really about running your household from a place of empathy, consistency, clearly articulated expectations. All of that has to happen. Now in that other household, that may not be happening. Is that confusing for your kids? Yes, but they've already gotten somewhat used to that because they've learned to interact with the two of you differently. Going through one of these situations is learning what you can and can't control. And that's what is so hard about this. And when you're parallel parenting, all you can do is sort of manage or control your side of the street or your household. Speaking about the children's perspective in this too, they're facing two different parenting dynamics. There is probably some benefit to the way that they're experiencing two different types of parenting as they grow. I don't know that there's a benefit, Saul. I wish I could say that there could be a benefit. I mean, I think that there is a... It really comes down to how healthy both of these parallel spaces are being run. Like if both places are psychologically safe, relatively consistent, infused with empathy and compassion and kindness, sure. But if that's not happening, then what you're teaching a child to do... is have to adapt to a space that feels unsafe and uncomfortable. And I don't think that's ever good for a child. Children already have to become masterful at numerous adaptations when they have a parent with a more difficult, disconnected, punitive, authoritarian, whatever parenting style, but unhealthy parenting style. And the child though, depending on how young they are, is really not in a position to view that parent through a negative lens. They are going to do whatever they can to keep a preserved version of that parent. And in some cases, what we'll see is that the more healthy, call them even the more protective parent using Dr. Cochiello's terminology, but that healthier parent, that child actually may be less kind to that healthy parent than they are to the more antagonistic parent because it's not safe. to be themselves with the antagonistic parent. So that kind of almost having to behave in a way that keeps them safe and gets their needs met with the more challenging parent means that what comes home to that healthier parent is actually more dysregulated, it is more difficult, and they might even be more angry. And the child doesn't have the capacity to put words to, why have you left me with this person who doesn't know what they're doing? The child is too loyal, right? Children are loyal to their parents. It takes them a minute. to get to the age where they're saying, oh, I absolutely can't stand this person. I mean, not probably until late adolescence, emerging adulthood do we see that. But up until that time, what we start to see, we see a child who is trying desperately to create attachments with both parents. And in so doing, will make whatever modifications, including self-blame in themselves, to maintain those attachments. So I don't know that that's healthier for them. I think that kids are resilient, but unfortunately what that resilience can do is it can be the foreshadowing of a trauma-bonded pattern that persists in the child throughout their lifespan. As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication, and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get 10% off with code Beyond10. Link in the show notes. And now back to the show. When a child comes from the other parent's home, I know it's a very common experience to have a child being quite dysregulated, curious what you might say to a co-parent that's going through that experience. So there's the experience when a child, when there's sort of a reconnection with a attachment object, a parent, caregiver, is a moment called rapprochement, right? And that rapprochement is something that I can give even dogs, adults, it's that. What happens at the moment of reunion? Right? And for kids who grow up in these more antagonistic, chaotic, and sort of dual home situations, rapprochement can be tricky. Because they're in, especially for kids who are going through one set of rules in one home, one set of rules in another, there's sort of this messy moment where they're trying to almost very quickly pivot into this new household. We as adults would have a hard time with that, and we're asking kids to do this. So keep in mind how tall a demand that is on a child, number one. Okay. So we have that piece of it. And so I think that as much as there can be low expectations for that initial moment of rapprochement, maybe doing it at around a time that fits more beautifully into a schedule, like a school pickup time. So it's not happening at the home, but it's big happening getting into the car, leaving school, which is. car is a car kind of thing and that there's a moment where you're asking about school and all of those things. And not hitting the child with too many questions and choices. What do you want for dinner? What do you want this? What do you want that? The child is still sort of like they're kind of looking in. So making that as much of a space where they can get centered, like, you know, just say, hey, sweetie, and then you get them in and you've thought through. Like you might know what they're like. You might even have consistent menus. If your child comes back to your home on a Wednesday evening, like every Wednesday, it's I don't know, taco Wednesday. And they know that that's what they're getting, that it's lifting some of these things. So there's things they're clicking into that are safe, consistent. One of the ways we help people with managing regulation is consistency and predictability. So fostering as much of that as you can at the moment of reconnection becomes very important. Things where the child can find them, but not overwhelming the child with details becomes really crucial. And having some touchstones in that environment that are consistent, that they can just sort of glide into. And that's why, like I said, sometimes one parent dropping the other parent off or having to pick up the child from the other parent's house may not always be optimal. I understand it can't always be helped, but it may sometimes be that the switch off is at a soccer game or from school where that will seem less of like the kind of chaos that can sometimes ensue, especially for a more antagonistic parent because antagonistic parents have a little bit more trouble with goodbyes. That's for sure. So that can also foster a sense of guilt for the child who may feel as though at some very core level they're abandoning that parent. I like what you said about rituals, right? Creating rituals that help the child stabilize back into the home. Yeah, yeah, the consistency, consistency. And what's hard is already the child's life is inconsistent, right? They're going between spaces. But secondly, it's because by definition, antagonistic parents are more dysregulated. there's a lack of consistency built right into that dysregulated behavior. That's part of the problem. So they may be then having to deal with a parent who is just kind of all over the map and anyhow, or might be angry or might feel like, you know, let's say something traffic threw off the drop-off by 30 minutes. That could be enough to take an antagonistic parent and spin them out. And the child is getting more and more and more and more tense in that car, knowing, oh my gosh, and then they know what they're going into. So all of these things, which should never be a child's problem because the child's problem. Going back for a moment, thinking about the co-parenting dynamic, you know, I know a lot of people going through these situations, maybe they grew up in households with very good boundaries, and they're learning how to set boundaries. What sort of advice might you give a co-parent on how to effectively set and maintain boundaries with their co-parent? I think right from the jump saw, I'd be like... drop that expectation way down because that just becomes one more place that a co-parent feels like, okay, I'm feeling at this too, because it can't be done. If you truly are dealing with an antagonistic co-parent, you cannot set boundaries. They will not be honored. And so now you've created one more zone of arguing intention that trickles to the child. I mean, that's what I tell people to do is as much as you can get this codified into the parenting agreement. that's what you've got to do because then it's not so much you enforcing a boundary which isn't going to be enforced, but at least it's on paper. And so you can at least document the fails on that. So if you ever decide to say, okay, this is not working, you can then take it back to court. But if this is not documented in a parenting agreement, all you've just got is a bunch of arguments. And so really thinking about what this needs to look like and excuse me, and then being reasonable about what your expectations are. But unfortunately, just like you would have had to have done in a marriage and had realistic expectations around an antagonistic relationship, those realistic expectations are multiplied by 10 in terms of how it now needs to show up within the confines of how you parent these children. And so I'll give you a great example of one of these kinds of boundaries that it was agreed upon but you didn't codify it in the parenting agreement. that it was agreed upon that neither of you would introduce new partners, for example, to a child until the other parent, like you met them first and you agreed to it and it had been X number of months. And then it's the holiday time and there's the new partner. What are you going to do? The more you make a make noise about it, the antagonistic parent is going to gaslight and manipulate it, make a lot of noise. potentially leads to an argument in front of the kids. It's a, these are going to be happening over and over and over again. It's not to say that you have to roll over and just sort of play dead, but it is that you can certainly voice your discomfort and saying, hey, we did talk about this, but always keep it child centered and say, I really worry about them feeling confused. And then you have to prepare for the, you never wanted me to be happy. You've always been jealous of me. And now you're competitive and competitive with me. I know you've been dating other people. So now you're in this chaotic argument where all you wanted to do was not confuse your kids. You've got to choose your battles. And that's why I say every single thing you do, true north, true north, true north, the kids, the kids, the kids, the kids, and trying to keep them as contained as possible within the confines of this rather messy situation. But I think talking about boundaries gets tricky. because you can have inner boundaries and within yourself say, if X happens, then I may bring up my attorney. I may try to bring up something. There might even be like, if this happens, then I'm going to communicate about that, but only if it gets to this level. Those are inner boundaries that you've got for yourself. But sadly with narcissistic folks, when you say, hey, I had a boundary around this. You know what you've done? You've just given them the roadmap for how to mess with you. You made a really good point. I want to underline it about internal boundaries. Boundaries are best when you yourself can enforce them. You're not relying on others. Now self-care, you had mentioned about having a good therapist, right? That behavior health is really important. What are some other practical strategies that co-parents might employ to get through this time period in their lives? several things. I would say the, I think self-care is such a loaded word. In the day and age we're in right now, because it implies spas and sleeping in, which is about the one thing that a person who's attempting to co-parent, parallel parent, to do any other form of parenting under these conditions is never going to have. Therapy and other forms of support is essential. You need people in your life who can hear this. I mean, if you have the resource to be able to afford therapy where you can say, and this happened and that happened. you, because sometimes your friends may burn out on it, support groups. And listen, you know, you might be able to even start a support group. There are people out there. Those, those support groups exist and maybe you're the one to start one. But you know, again, it's a, you want to be careful because some support groups can start getting really toxic and you want to make sure that that's not one more replay. So if it doesn't feel good anymore, be discerning, step away from it. Cultivate your friendships, foster your friendships, because those may be places, people who know what you've been through and they're just sort of that they'll be like, let's just all have the kids over, we'll have a movie night, we'll hang out, we'll make dinner. So those things that you can do when you have your kids around, so you don't feel like you're stepping away from them, especially when you feel like you're not having so much time with them. I would also say that you, I mean, use the downtime you have. Well, I remember talking with a woman who had gone through some unantagonistic divorce and she said, do you know what? One of the things where I turned a corner was, there are times there with him and I'm just using these times to do some things I want. I think she was taking some kind of bread baking or Moroccan cooking class. It was one or the other. Maybe it was both. But she said it, and you know what? Sometimes he doesn't pick up the kids, so I don't get to go every week. So this probably thinks I'm going to miss. She said, for the first time, I've actually got a little time in my life. And so I'm going to use that in ways that feel good to me or just enjoy the quiet. And so sort of use those times. Maybe you don't have your kids to maybe sort of feel a little more grounded and engage in other activities that do bring you back in your body, whether it's certain forms of exercise or anything that just sort of gives you a moment to just sort of learn to regulate, be with your feelings, to manage all of the overwhelm, whatever that looks like. I said therapy is a big, big one for that. Depending how severe what happened in your marriage and divorce were, might even be things that was oriented to a sort of trauma-informed therapy. to help you with that. But I think validating voices, especially people who are going through this too, can help you feel so much more sane and having meaning and purpose outside of this, because it can really feel like your full-time job is trying to play this really kind of diabolical chess game and try to outplay someone. Having something that's separate from it, that's yours. Whatever it may be. It might be you volunteered a local food pantry. It might be that you do take this cooking class where you miss several weeks out of it or... You whatever you take, you do something, you something with your job or writing or whatever you can do, whatever it is you are doing. Any of those things can be a big, any of those things can be a big help. And then there's also that other issue about, well, what if I, I want to try again, I want to give love a chance again in a future relationship. Listen, love is great. I think in these circumstances, you just have to tread lightly. At a minimum, I tell people, you want the ink dry on that divorce for a year. People say, what? I was out of the marriage for two years and I said, yes, because you are now, once this thing is codified as a divorce and you're navigating this parenting agreement, you've got to really, really be careful and watch how you navigate that number one. Number two, I tell people, be careful as all get out on social media. even one martini glass up with you having a good time with friends, all of a sudden now you're a drunk. So you have to be so careful with how you portray your life. And in some ways, I always tell people if you could shut down your life a little bit on social media or stick with things that don't betray what you're doing in your life, because that often gives the antagonistic, narcissistic, manipulative, whatever, X, something that they're like, oh no, you're not getting away with this. You're not having fun. And so... then don't share that part of it. And really make sure your kids are in a good place before you start bringing them on that kind of a wild ride with you again. Because I do think that kids going through this kind of an experience need so much of the parent. And so take it slow. Don't start right away. give it at least a year until the ink is dry, you might say, ah, but come on, they've already, they're already in a new relationship and starting a new family. Yup. And that's means of doing behaving exactly as we thought they would. This isn't about keeping up with them. So there's not only the caring for yourself, but it's also being careful with how you go through the world, because sadly, some of these things can come back and bite you and that's the new world you live in. Well, and there's also this idea, right? That if you haven't done your own work, if you haven't healed from what attracted you originally to that first relationship, you might end up repeating the same patterns. I'm gonna push back on that. Please do. Because I don't think anyone went in there to attract someone who behaved badly. I think that what happens is, what's so tricky with manipulative, antagonistic relationships is, they actually start with someone who's very compelling and charming and charismatic, and sure, yes, they may parallel people in your own family of origin, but not always. Sometimes they're just really engaging, attractive people. And I use that positioning because I think otherwise people start blaming themselves like I attract these people or I'm drawn to people who are bad to me. Where I think the issue becomes you might get stuck with people who are bad with you, right? So how much had to accumulate for you to clock this as a pattern? Like what you were calling intensity may have actually just been dysregulation, like learning the right word for things. And I think that's where time down. away from it allows a person to observe not only that these were the unhealthy patterns, if you did come from a family of origin where these patterns were present, you might see like, oh, interesting, this was a recapitulation, but a lot of people who get stuck in these relationships said my family of origin was nothing like this. I didn't even know what the heck I was dealing with. So I think that doing the work on oneself is number one, healing from the relationship. And number two, it's also processing. what healthy relationships around us feel like and look like. Because you might have healthy friendships, right? And say, it's interesting, with this person, I feel like I can be myself. I don't feel judged. I know who I am. I know what I stand for. And you might also come to the realization of how much your relational choices were about living to a societal narrative or a familial narrative. And instead of saying, like, I actually, what I want a relationship is this, or I actually don't want to be in a relationship. So there's a, but that's kind of self-study. It takes time. When you're navigating a separation or divorce, especially from someone that might be classified as manipulative, sometimes they can engage your family members, your friends, and you can lose relationships, or relationships can change. And I'm curious if you have any advice for maybe those people, the people that are like the grandparents in these situations. they're looking on and maybe they're thinking takes two to tango why don't they just why can't she just move on or he move on how can they best support a coprant that's going through this So I think there's a couple of things. Number one, the other family members, your own family members know you. You'd like to think they know you, but this is actually an incredibly painful, painful grief inducing journey part of this for a lot of people who say, wait a minute, my family is, they're actually falling for this whole thing. So they always tell people, I said, you gotta be gonna remember about most people. And it's an uncomfortable truth of most people. Most people want to maintain the status quo. They liked it. You were married to someone and you had the kids and there was the holiday and wasn't this fun and they were nice enough and they always brought a nice bottle of wine and isn't this great, right? Status quo, status quo, status quo. We are homeostatic creatures and most people aren't that rebellious. They want to maintain that. So especially in a family system or a culture where divorce or marital dissolution isn't part of the story, there's always that sense like, it can always get worked out. Right? Meanwhile, you've probably tried to work this out or somebody in one of these relationships would have tried to work this out a thousand different ways and it just wasn't happening. So what can really be painful is when the other person, let's call them the manipulative antagonistic partner, can actually get into one's own family system and say, hey, you know, this happened and they said this and they did that and I didn't want this to end and whatever it may be. It can be very, very confusing for those family members, especially if this isn't something they know about, right? Not everyone is informed about antagonism or toxicity or difficulty or whatever the hell you want to call this, right? Most people don't get that. All they see is like, wait a minute, you mean I'm not going to see the grandkids at every vacation, every holiday. That's what they're seeing, right? They're seeing that disruption in the status quo and very few families are so sophisticated but they can have the... conversation on that level. They just see a disruption to something that was working. And again, that can be a real source of grief. And I will say to people, if you feel safe with your family, to sit down with them and say, okay, I didn't want to speak badly about them to you, but I'm going to have to really lay out for you what happened in this relationship. If however, your family system is also antagonistic, you're not going to be able to get through to them. And if anything, this is just going to be one more weaponized way for them to say, see, you're the problem. kind of thing, one more place for them to get a dig in. And this just becomes that landscape of grief that occurs. Now in the luckiest, luckiest people, the antagonistic person kind of gets the ears of the person, of a person's own family. And that family says, wait a minute, what's happening here? Like they're saying all this weird stuff about you, and you're able to say, okay, this is what's going on. And they hear you, and it all comes to a nice resolution. But I gotta tell you, that's the minority of cases. where that happens, but a lot of it comes down to people sort of not wanting the status quo to have gotten disrupted. And if you yourself are being private about it and not giving the gory details to your family and someone else comes along and gives what feels like a plausible version of events, some people will glom onto that and say, well, at least someone's explaining to me what's happening. So you have to be ready for that. And so in cases where you feel safe enough with your family, you don't have to come in with the cavalry and say like, Hey, all these terrible blah, gaslight, blah, narcissistic. You don't have to say that and say, listen, this was, this was, this was tough. And over time, this and this stick to behaviors, this and this happened. And it left me feeling this and this. And you even noticed some of the changes in me. And I had to make that painful decision of what would be healthier for me and the kids. And this is the path we're taking presenting it in a very, very sane way. Um, Again, if you have a moderately sane family, they'll hear it, but the more you leave the family in the dark about what's happening, they're going to glom onto anything they're given and a difficult, manipulative, antagonistic ex-partner will get in there, and especially if they have any kind of relationships or friendships with people in your own family. Yeah, that's a really good point about how family members are attracted to the status quo and they want things to go back the way they were. the one who made the decision, and in some ways they feel resentment towards that. And so that already gives maybe the other side a bit more advantage in terms of their storytelling. Exactly. So moving to best interests, you're an advisor to the Best Interests co-parenting app. And we've been working on it for a while now. And I wanted to ask you, what drew you to wanting to become an advisor to best interest and how do you see it supporting co-parents? When you first showed it to me, I was absolutely intrigued with this idea of, it was like as close to what I've always wanted, which was sort of a narcissism communication decoder ring, right? You know, this sense that something could sort of take the message, strip the hostility and cut to the facts or teach someone how to stick to the facts. Because the fact of the matter is, is when even a person who regards themselves or conducts themselves as healthy gets pulled into an antagonistic relationship, behavior deteriorates. And you may find yourself almost getting right there in the mud and communicating in ways that aren't healthy and having something say, you want to try this a different way. It's funny, I think that texting somehow subverts our frontal lobes, right? We just, boom, and somehow being interpersonally in someone's face, the facial cues, the presence of a three-dimensional other human being, our central nervous system kicks in a very different inhibitory way. But when we're tapping on a piece of glass and plastic... that inhibition doesn't happen. So this was that, especially for healthier people, that ability to almost like fix this sort of pseudo frontal lobe on it and say, there's another way to say this. And at the same time, people who are feeling deeply, deeply triggered by these really angry messages, but at the core of the message is, what time does the ballet class end? And you have to sort through all of this cruelty and meanness and. criticism to really get to the what time does the ballet class end? That's really what jumped out at me is that, A, this is one of those times where AI was going to be able to jump in and you'd get that machine learning, learning how to like, this is how these people communicate. But also, how can we sort of keep pulling out the facts, really pulling out the facts in a situation where the best interest of children is really the focal, like really it is what time is the ballet pickup at? What am I supposed to bring to the potluck? Are we supposed to bring gifts to this birthday party? Those are really the only questions that need to be answered. And so that an app could get in there and provide a tool for people, it just felt like an interesting first step to sort of trying to kind of de-escalate what can actually be for many people find that these, that the communication with an ex over some of the most mundane things, like do they need to take their cleats? ends up, that ends them up soon feeling like I need an EMDR session. And all I wanted to know is did we need to bring the cleats today? And so small things turning into these really triggering, upsetting circumstances and also in the same breath that it also becomes that wake up call to say, you don't need to do this too. You can stick to just the facts and say the socks and the cleats are in the. Yeah. It keeps the business like aspect of, of operative communication at the forefront. and strips out all that cruft that doesn't really help. Correct. And that was, to me, that that's what intrigued me. And again, you and I have talked about what makes this tricky, because in a way, it's not as though an antagonistic or manipulative person doesn't have the ability to communicate in a healthy way. They're choosing not to. And so, they're not always gonna wanna play nice, but that's okay. It doesn't mean that a person who is in a relationship and is feeling like, I just want to make this cleaner and healthier and can even have that opportunity. One thing I really like about best interest is that it can be used to filter the text from a difficult X. So you can read very quickly the healthy version. Remember ballet pickup is at three o'clock. But later on, if you choose, the whole toxic message is there. for you to read and maybe you do that in your therapist's office, maybe you do that with a friend, maybe you do that in the evening once the kids are asleep, but you're not sitting in the middle of a busy day, in the middle of a meeting, just sort of frozen, but you're like, yep, three o'clock versus the entire litany of stuff. And then get to that in your own time. It's not as though you're being kept from it, but there's a time and a place. And I think a lot of people in these relationships are really triggered by these really, really awful text messages. I mean, all of us have gotten really toxic, unhinged text messages from people, maybe not exes, but from people. And it can completely throw your day. You could be at work and have made the mistake of looking at your phone and you'll be thrown off for the rest of your afternoon or whatever it may be. And so, ruminate about it or it could get in the way of you doing a presentation or you might forget to do something else. So some way of managing this, because here's the thing. One thing best interests you, I really, really reminds us this, he ain't gonna change them. So maybe we can change some of the guardrails around the communication. That, and you know, I also really love this concept of in the challenge there is growth and healing that's available, right? So if I do take that original message, maybe when I'm in my therapist chair, I can work through what that's trying to teach me. Right? Work through those triggers so I grow stronger. I couldn't agree more. I think that because listen, somebody sending you an angry two-page text that's really about belly pickup is at three, is going to be uncomfortable for anyone, but triggers are very specific to us, you know, they could relate to family of origin issues, they could relate to a general lack of safety in the world. It could be bringing up old patterns in the relationship, whatever it is. It does become a really interesting tool to take that part of the communication into a place where you can say, okay, I want to work on this and also have the benefit of a therapist being able to say, okay, how does it feel when you, you read this and what's happening in your body? Like I do, I think it becomes a really interesting tool. In the past, Saul, what I've had people do is they just bring the original text they got in. and they never got a filter on it, right? And so they said, I've been sitting on this for four days and stewing and ruminating. Would be interesting to make it, to make it so that people could say, okay, I'm gonna just bring this into therapy on Tuesday and we're gonna open it up together. Well, I think we should be wrapping up now. I'm curious if you have any additional topics that you'd like to cover before we close out that we didn't cover in our interview. I think that one of the most difficult parts of co-parenting when it's a very difficult, more emotionally fraught situation is that everyone's holding out that there's an idea that there's some perfect path forward that they don't know about, that there's some clean, clear, healthy, it gets figured out. It's fair, they'll get the custody agreement they want. And I think that the sheer amount of disappointment that happens constantly in these circumstances is overwhelming for people. And I also think that there's a helplessness, the sense of they are saying terrible things about me and this is hurting my relationship with my child, that kind of thing. There's so much pain around that because there's so much helplessness. And I think I want people to know that there's no magical thing you could have done. This is another human being and you can only, especially in these cases, you can only intervene so much and if anything, to the degree that they know they're getting to you, it can often be a lot worse. And our family court systems have not caught up to this. They do not understand. And frankly, Saul, even if they did understand, they're still stuck with the family code as it's written. And so it is a... I think a lot of people, there is this interminable grief that some of the decisions being made by an entity like this are being made in a way that they know are going to have long-term implications for this child. And there is so much, again, anger, grief, a sense of injustice. And we see all of this in people who have survived trauma as well, is that that's why mental health intervention does become so important. Why do I have to get therapy? There's nothing wrong with me. I'm in a messed up situation. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you, but when we are having to navigate situations that are this inequitable, unfair, unseeing, sometimes just having a validating voice of someone who's not a friend or someone who's not going through it with us, for example, even a family member who feels equally helpless, you're sort of, two of you are drowning together. And the idea of having professional guidance is I think a lot of people think, oh, I'm going to therapy like I'm the one with a problem, but I don't think I have a problem. I think I'm having an appropriate reaction to a messed up situation to which I say, absolutely. Yes, you are. It is a messed up situation. And yes, you're having an appropriate reaction, but having someone being an objective validating voice can sometimes be what just helps people say, okay, at least for this one more week, I realize I'm not crazy. And that can go a long way and help you be more present. with your children. And it's a wild ride and it doesn't always feel fair. And so I think that it's helping people prepare for something that's going to feel really unfair and unjust for a long time. Dr. Ramani, thank you so much for being on and hope you have a wonderful day. Thanks, you too. Thank you, Saul. Thanks for joining us on the Co-Parenting Beyond Conflict podcast. Join us next time for an interview with attorney Ron Gore about reducing conflict in your co-parenting relationship and avoiding legal issues.