SPEAKER_00 0:00

I I just want to first say just how much your videos were so helpful to me early on in my co-parenting journey. And I just want to say thank you for creating that resource and being that shining light. And uh just how grateful I am that you're on the podcast today to speak to us uh about co-parenting.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Thank you, some. I mean, I really appreciate that. I I for the longest time, Saul, no one's had had access to this kind of information or knowledge, and and so many people blame themselves. And I and it put them at a marked disadvantage, most pointedly as parents, because they think I've got to be doing something wrong. But these are parents who are often doing many things right, but because nothing made sense. And frankly, I don't think enough therapists talk about this. We don't talk about it enough in graduate school, this idea of how these personality styles show up and why they're so difficult to spot when we're in a relationship, because there are actually what feel like a lot of good moments. I think we're in a world where we want things to be all bad for them to qualify as not being healthy, but that's just not how people work.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Right. Well, you have this situation where you're in this relationship with someone and you discover it's not working, and you say, Well, this relationship is no longer right for me, for us, and I want to end the relationship. But when you have kids, right, there's this idea that the relationship can't end in some way or it has to shift.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I think it gets to be challenging with kids in so, so many ways, right? Because listen, you know, the the the million-dollar question, and I don't think we're ever going to get a satisfactory answer to it through the data, is what's worse for a child? Being raised by parents who have disdain, dislike, contempt, or even frank hostility towards each other, or who just intensely dislike each other, or growing up in a home and then and staying like that, or growing up with the parents having split up, right? I remember a woman saying to me once, it was it was some it stayed with me because it was almost like the living lab we wanted to hear this in. She had said it was a group of women, probably 15 of them in the group, in a support, like support group therapy kind of thing. And she had said how all of them were going through these really, really difficult, manipulative, painful, expensive divorce processes. And half of them, so half of them were and half of them weren't. They all had antagonistic narcissistic spouses. That was the one uniform thing. Okay. Half left, half did not. And what was fascinating for her, because she was still on the fence, was there was no right path. The people who had split up said, it's so nice to be, to have moments of peace, right? And knowing that there could be a different future. But this is I'm constantly on pins and needles, wondering how the kids are doing alone with them, and things are getting forgotten, and homework's not getting done, and it's really destabilizing for the kids. And then the other group were saying, My kids are growing up in sheer misery. So there my points all in this is that I think everyone's looking for what the right path is, and they don't think that's the right question. I think it's what path in your given situation might cause the least fallout because no matter what, there's going to be fallout.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Yeah, that brings me to uh this concept that you present in your book, It's Not You, right? Where you talk about uh this idea of letting go of closure, that in co-parenting, there's like no satisfying conclusion to disagreements, especially when you're dealing with narcissists. How can co-parents let go of this need for closure and and focus on um healthier ways to move forward?

SPEAKER_01 3:47

I don't know that we could ever help let any guide someone to let go of what is such a basic need, which is closure. I think it's letting go of the idea that it will ever happen. Right. And so there's a difference. There's a difference because I think acknowledging that that need for closure is a very human need, it's a very healing need. And it is for that reason that the trauma always sort of is like a it's like a little needling pain that never quite goes away. If you look at Judith Herman's work on, you know, repair after trauma, when you don't get that sense of resolution or justice, it makes it harder. There's no two ways about it. So when I work with folks on this, I'll I'll say that desire for closure is so human and it's one more grief to recognize you're not going to get it, because you're not going to most likely get it. And so then it's navigating this sense of that, you know, because I think people might even say, I don't even feel necessary hostility to this person. Like this is just not the relationship I want. However, the narcissistic person may be expressing a lot of hostility, then you sort of feel like you're getting pulled into the mud. But I think another challenge that people have in antagonistic relationship breakups and divorces of any kind is that they want to understand the why. Why, why did you do this? Why did you behave like this? Why did you cheat? Why did you lie? Why did you any of it? And there's one more piece of the closure equation. You're not going to get that explanation. Because to be able to do that, a person requires self-reflective capacity. And that self-reflective capacity for someone who's antagonistic to plumb those depths means activating too much shame, which would be too much, too uncomfortable. Had the capacity been there all along, you probably wouldn't be in the situation. And so understanding what's simply not possible and then grieving that lack of closure, that means people can conserve their energy and remain focused on the central issue here, which is the well-being of your children.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

In in co-parenting situations, a lot of people and the courts included in this tend to just create a blanket statement that you should be collaborative, you should work together, you should forget about the past and just move on. And in some of your recent videos, I think you've mentioned about parallel parenting and how that can be applied very well in these sorts of dynamics. Could you talk to us a bit about parallel parenting for co-parents that might be facing these types of relationships?

SPEAKER_01 6:11

So I think one of the I want to go back to your first point, which is that the courts and everyone else are saying, just put it all behind you. Listen, I think a lot of times the healthier person in these proceedings is saying, okay, let's put it behind us and let's move forward in the best interest of the child. People with antagonistic, more difficult personalities can't. That vindictiveness, vindictive can't let it go piece is very characteristic of that personality style. So even if somebody says, fine, I will move forward, I want to do what's best for the kids, that's simply not going to happen. So the the recommendation that's being given by courts and mediators is simply not informed by an awareness of the personalities involved. Okay, so then that takes us to co-parenting is the wrong word, because by definition, co-implies cooperation. It implies collaboration. It implies two things, two people doing something together and communicating about it. And so parallel uh parenting gets at this idea of you're doing your part, they're doing their part. And I think that, again, we come back to this concept of injustice, Saul, which is this idea of many times people who are going through these kinds of really difficult, um, manipulative, antagonistic kinds of divorce situations find themselves having to take on a far greater burden. They will get kids without homework done who are a mess being dropped off after a weekend, or, you know, birthday parties were forgotten. And so you're on one parent side, they'll feel like they're having to so much be sort of the enforcer and the schedule keeper and the doer and the fixer. And to which I say, yep, that's exactly right. And that is how it is. And there's no version of this where that's going to be justly distributed. And so parallel parenting really ties into this idea of the true north that I write and talk about, which is you got to have your eye very clearly on what's going to navigate you to the best possible outcome for what matters here. In the case of now we're talking about parenting, is your children. And yep, that means you are going to be doing more of the load and no one's going to see it, and it's going to feel awful, which is why you need support or therapy. And sometimes you are the nuisance, problem, difficult parent because you're the one pushing the homework, you're the one pushing the schedules, you're the one having to second and you know, first, second, third, double check everything over and over again. So it can feel very imbalanced, but it's really about running your household from a place of empathy, consistency, clearly articulated expectations. All of that has to happen. Now, in that other household, that may not be happening. Is that confusing for your kids? Yes, but they've already gotten somewhat used to that because they've watched, they've learned to interact with the two of you differently. You it going through one of these situations is learning what you can and can't control. And that's what is so hard about this. And when you're parallel parenting, all you can do is sort of manage or control your side of the street or your household.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Speaking about the the children's perspective in this too, I they're facing two different parenting dynamics. There is probably some benefit to uh the way that they're experiencing two different types of parenting as they grow.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

I don't know that there's a benefit, Saul. I I wish I could say that there could be a benefit. I I I mean, I think that there is a it really comes down to how healthy both of these parallel spaces are being run. Like if both places are psychologically safe, relatively consistent, infused with empathy and compassion and kindness, sure. But if that's not happening, then what you're teaching a child to do is have to adapt to a space that feels unsafe and uncomfortable. And I don't think that's ever good for a child. Children already have to become masterful at numerous adaptations when they have a parent with a more difficult, disconnected, punitive, authoritarian, you know, whatever parenting style, but unhealthy parenting style. And the child, though, depending on how young they are, is really not in a position to view that parent through a negative lens. They're going to do whatever they can to keep a preserved version of that parent. And in some cases, what we'll see is that the more healthy, call them even the more protective parent using Dr. Cociola's terminology, but that healthier parent, that child actually may be less kind to that healthy parent than they are to the more antagonistic parent because it's not safe to be themselves with the antagonistic parent. So that kind of almost having to behave in a way that keeps them safe and gets their needs met with the more challenging parent means that what comes home to that healthier parent is actually more dysregulated. It is more difficult, and they might even be more angry. And the child doesn't have the capacity to put words to, why have you left me with this person who doesn't know what they're doing? The child is too loyal, right? Children are loyal to their parents. It takes them a minute to get to the age where they're saying, Oh, I absolutely can't stand this person. And we're not probably until late adolescence, emerging adulthood, do we see that? But up until that time, what we start to see, we see a child who is trying desperately to create attachments with both parents. And in so doing, will make whatever modifications, including self-blame in themselves, to maintain those attachments. So I don't know that that's healthier for them. I I think that kids are resilient, but unfortunately, what that resilience can do is it can be the foreshadowing of a trauma-bonded pattern that persists in the child throughout their lifespan.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication, and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get 10% off with code BEOND10. Link in the show notes. And now, back to the show. When a child uh comes from the other parent's home, I know it's a very common experience to have a child being quite dysregulated. Curious what you might say to a co-parent that's going through that experience.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

So there's the experience when a child comes when there's sort of a reconnection with an attachment object, a parent, caregiver, is a moment called rapprochement, right? And that rapprochement is something that I can be in dogs, adults. It's that what happens at the moment of reunion, right? And for kids who grow up in these more antagonistic, chaotic, and you know, sort of dual, you know, like dual home situations, rapprochement can be tricky because they're in, especially for kids who are going through one set of rules in one home, one set of rules in another, there's sort of this messy moment where they're trying to almost very quickly pivot into this new household. We as adults would have a hard time with that. And we're asking kids to do this. So keep in mind how tall a demand that is on a child, number one. Okay. So we have that piece of it. And so I think that as much as there can be low expectations for that initial moment of rapprochement, maybe doing it at around a time that that fits more beautifully into a schedule, like a school pickup time. So it's not happening at the home, but it's happening, getting into the car, leaving school, which is car is a car kind of thing. And that there's a moment where you're asking about school and all of those things. And not hitting the child with too many questions and choices. What do you want for dinner? What do you want this? What do you want that? Because the child is still sort of like they're kind of clicking in. So making that as much of a space where they can get centered, like, you know, just a hey, sweetie. And then you get them in and you've thought through. Like you might know what they're like, you might even have consistent menus. If your child comes back to your home on a Wednesday evening, like every Wednesday, it's, I don't know, Taco Wednesday, and they know that that's what they're getting, that it's lifting some of these things. So there's things they're clicking into that are safe, consistent. One of the ways we help people with managing regulation is consistency and predictability. So fostering as much of that as you can at the moment of reconnection becomes very important. Things where the child can find them, but not overwhelming the child with details becomes really crucial. And having some touchstones in that environment that are consistent, that they can just sort of glide into. And that's why, like I said, sometimes one parent dropping the other parent off or having to pick up the child from the other parent's house may not always be optimal. I understand it can't always be, um, it can't always be helped, but it may sometimes be that the switch off is at a soccer game or from school where that will seem less of like the the kind of chaos that can sometimes ensue, especially for a more antagonistic parent, because antagonistic parents have a little bit more trouble with goodbyes. That's for sure. So that can also foster a sense of guilt for the child who may feel as though at some very core level they're abandoning that parent.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

I like what you said about rituals, right? Creating rituals that help the child stabilize back into the home.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yeah. Yeah. The consistency, consistency, consistency, consistency. And what's hard is already the child's life is is inconsistent, right? They're they're going between spaces. But secondly, it is it's because by definition, antagonistic parents are more dysregulated, there's a lack of consistency built right into that dysregulated behavior. That's part of the problem. So they may be then having to deal with the parent who is just kind of all over the map and um anyhow, or might be angry, or might feel like, you know, let's say something traffic threw off the drop-off by 30 minutes. That could be enough to take an antagonistic parent and spin them out. And the child is getting more and more and more and more tense in that car, knowing, oh my gosh. And then they know what they're going into. So all of these things, which should never be a child's problem, become the child's problem.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Going back for a moment, thinking about the co-parenting dynamic, you know, I know a lot of people going through these situations, maybe they grew up in households without very good boundaries, um, and they're learning how to set boundaries. What sort of advice might you give a co-parent on how to effectively set and maintain boundaries with their co-parent?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

I I think right right from the jump saw, I'd be like, drop that expectation way down because that just becomes one more place that a co-parent feels like, okay, I'm failing at this too, because it can't be done. If you truly are dealing with an antagonistic co-parent, you cannot set boundaries. They will not be honored. And so now you've created one more zone of arguing and tension that trickles to the child. I mean, that's uh what you what I tell people to do is as much as you can get this codified into the parenting agreement, that's what you've got to do. Because then it's not so much you in enforcing a boundary, which isn't going to be enforced, but at least it's in paper. And so you can at least document the fails on that. So if you ever decide to say, okay, this is not working, you can then take it back to court. But if this is not documented in a parenting agreement, all you've just got is a bunch of arguments. And so really thinking about what this needs to look like and excuse me, and then being reasonable about what your expectations are. But unfortunately, just like you would have had to have done in a marriage and had realistic expectations around an antagonistic relationship, those realistic expectations are multiplied by 10 in terms of how it now needs to show up within the confines of how you parent these children. And so I'll give you a great example of one of these kinds of boundaries that the that it was agreed upon, but you didn't codify it in the parenting agreement, that it was agreed upon that neither of you would introduce new partners, for example, to a uh a child until the other parent, like you met them first and you agreed to it and it'd been X number of months. And then it's the holiday time and blah-blah, there's the new partner. What are you going to do? What are you going to do? The more you make a make noise about it, the antagonistic parent is going to gaslight and manipulate and make a lot of noise, potentially lead to an argument in front of the kids. It's a these are going to be happening over and over and over again. It's not to say that you have to roll over and just sort of play dead, but it is to you can certainly voice your discomfort and saying, hey, we we did talk about this, but always keep it child-centered and say, I really worry about them feeling confused. And then you have to prepare for the you never wanted me to be happy. You've always been jealous of me. And now you're competitive and competitive with me. I know you've been dating other people. So now you're in this chaotic argument where all you wanted to do was not confuse your kids. You've got to choose your battles. And that's why I say every single thing you do, true north, true north, true north, the kids, the kids, the kids, the kids. And trying to keep them as contained as possible within the confines of this rather messy situation. But I think talking about boundaries gets tricky because you can have inner boundaries and within yourself say, if X happens, then I may ring up my attorney, I may try to, you know, bring up something. There might even be like if if if this happens, then I'm going to communicate about that, but only if it gets to this level. Those are inner boundaries that you've got for yourself. But sadly, with narcissistic folks, when you say, hey, I had a boundary around this, you know what you've done? You've just given them the roadmap for how to mess with you.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

You made a really good point. I want to underline it about internal boundaries. Boundaries are best when you yourself can enforce them. You're not relying on others. Now, self-care, you'd mentioned about having a good therapist, right? That behavioral health is really important. Um, what are some other practical strategies that co-parents might employ to get through this time period in their lives?

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Got several things. I would say the I think self-care is such such a loaded word in this in the day and age we're in right now because it's it implies spas and sleeping in, which is about the one thing that a person who's attempting to co-parent, parallel parent, to do any other form of parenting under these conditions is never going to have. Therapy and other forms of support is essential. You need people in your life who can hear this. I mean, if you have the resource to be able to afford therapy where you can say, and this happened, and that happened, you because sometimes your friends may burn out on it. Support groups, and listen, you know, you might be able to even start a support group. There are people out there, those support groups exist, and maybe you're the one to start one. But, you know, again, it's a you want to be careful because some support groups can start getting really uh toxic, and you want to make sure that that's not one more replay. So if it doesn't feel good anymore, be discerning, step away from it. Cultivate your friendships, foster your friendships, because those may be places who people who know what you've been through and they're just sort of that they'll be like, let's just all have the kids over, we'll have a movie night, we'll hang out, we'll make dinner. So those things that you can do when you have your kids around, so you don't feel like you're stepping away from them, especially when you feel like you're not having so much time with them. Um, I I would also say that you I mean, use your use the downtime you have. Well, I remember talking with a woman who has had gone through some antagonistic divorce, and she said, Do you know what? One of the things where I turned a corner was there are times there with him, and I'm just using these times to do some things I want. I think she was taking some kind of red big. Making or a Moroccan cooking class. Something it was it was one or the other. Maybe it was both. But she said, and and you know what? Sometimes he doesn't pick up the kids, so I don't get to go every week. So there's probably things I'm going to miss. She said, for the first time, I've actually got a little time in my life. And so I'm going to use that in ways that, you know, feel good to me or just enjoy the quiet. And so sort of use those times maybe you don't have your kids to maybe sort of feel a little more grounded and engage in other activities that do bring you back in your body, whether it's certain forms of exercise or, you know, anything that just sort of gives you a moment to just sort of learn to regulate, be with your feelings, and, you know, to manage all of the overwhelm, whatever that looks like. I said therapy is a big, big one for that. And depending on how severe what happened in your marriage and divorce were, might even be things that were oriented towards sort of trauma-informed therapy to help you with that. But I think validating voices, especially people who are going through this too, can help you feel so much more sane. And having meaning and purpose outside of this, because it can make it can really feel like your full-time job is trying to play this really kind of diabolical chess game and try to outplay someone, having something that's separate from it, that's yours. Whatever it may be. It might be you, you volunteered a local food pantry. It might be that you do take this cooking class where you miss several weeks out of it, or you whatever, you take, you do something. You, you something with your job or writing, or whatever you can do, whatever it is you are doing, any of those things can be a big those can any of those things can be a big help. And then there's also that other issue about, well, what if I I want, I want, I want to try again. I want to give love a chance again in a future relationship. Listen, love is great. I think in these circumstances, you just have to tread lightly. At a minimum, I tell people, you want the ink dry on that divorce for a year. People say, What? I was out of the marriage for two years. And I said, Yes, because you are now, once this thing is codified as a divorce and you're navigating this parenting agreement, you've got to really, really be careful and watch sort of how you navigate that. Number one. Number two, I tell people, be careful as all get out on social media. Even one martini glass up with you having a good time with friends, all of a sudden now you're a drunk. You know, so you have to be so careful with how you portray your life. And in some ways, I always tell people, if you could shut down your life a little bit on social media or stick with things that don't betray what you're doing in your life, because that often gives the antagonistic, narcissistic, manipulative, whatever X something that they're like, oh no, no, no, you're not getting away with this. You're not having fun. And so then don't share that part of it and really make sure your kids are in a good place before you start bringing them on that kind of a wild ride with you again. Because I do think that it's, you know, kids going through this kind of an experience need all so much of the parent. And so take it slow. Don't start right away, give it at least a year till the ink is dry. You might say, ah, but come on, they've already, they're already in a new relationship and starting a new family. Yep. And that's means of doing, behaving exactly as we thought they would. This isn't about keeping up with them. So there's not only the caring for yourself, but it's also being careful with how you go through the world because sadly, some of these things can come back and bite you, and that's the new world you live in.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Well, and there's also this idea, right, that if you haven't done your own work, if you haven't healed from what attracted you originally to that first relationship, you might end up repeating the same patterns.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

I I'm gonna push back on that because I don't think I don't think anyone went in there to attract someone who behaved badly. I think that what happens is what's so tricky with manipulative, antagonistic relationships is they actually start with someone who's very compelling and charming and charismatic. And sure, yes, they may have parallel people in your own family of origin, but not always. Sometimes they're just really engaging, attractive people. And I'm I use that positioning because I think otherwise people start blaming themselves, like I attract these people or I'm drawn to people who are bad to me. Where I think the issue becomes you might get stuck with people who are bad with you, right? So how much had to accumulate for you to clock this as a pattern, like what you were calling intensity may have actually just been dysregulation, like learning the writer word for things. And I think that's where time down away from it allows a person to observe not only that uh, these were the unhealthy patterns. If you did come from a family of origin where these patterns were present, you might see, like, oh, interesting. This was a recapitulation, but a lot of people who get stuck in these relationships said, my family of origin was nothing like this. I didn't even know what the heck I was dealing with. So I think that doing the work on oneself is number one, healing from the relationship. And number two, it's also processing what healthy relationships around us feel like and look like. Because you might have healthy friendships, right? And say, it's interesting, with this person, I feel like I can be myself. I don't feel judged. I know who I am, I know what I stand for. And you might also come to the realization of how much your relational choices were about living to a societal narrative or a familial narrative. And instead of saying, like, I actually what I want in a relationship is this, or I actually don't want to be in a relationship. So there's but that's kind of self-study, it takes time.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

When you're navigating a separation or divorce, um, especially from someone that might be classified as manipulative, sometimes they can engage your family members, your friends, and you can lose relationships or relationships can change. Um, and I'm curious if you have any advice for uh maybe those people, the people that uh are like the grandparents in these situations where they're looking on and maybe they're thinking, takes two to tango. Why don't they just why can't she just move on or he move on? How can they best support uh a co-parent that's going through this?

SPEAKER_01 28:10

So I think there's a couple of things. Number one, the other family members, your own family members, know you. You'd like to think they know you, but this is this is actually incredibly painful, painful grief inducing journey part of this for a lot of people who say, wait a minute, my family is they're actually falling for this whole thing. So they always tell people, I said, You gotta be gonna remember about most people. And it's an uncomfortable truth of most people. Most people want to maintain the status quo. They liked it. You were married to someone and you had the kids and there was the holiday, and wasn't this fun, and they were nice enough, and they always brought a nice bottle of wine, and isn't this great, right? Status quo, status quo, status quo. We are homeostatic creatures, and most people aren't that rebellious. They so they want to maintain that. So, especially in a family system where or a culture where divorce or marital dissolution isn't part of the story, there's always that sense like it can always get worked out, right? I mean, while you've done the you've probably tried to work this out, or somebody in one of these relationships would have tried to work this out a thousand different ways, and it just wasn't happening. So, what can really be painful is when the other person, let's call them the manipulative antagonistic partner, can actually get into one's own family system and say, hey, you know, this happened and they said this and they did that, and I didn't want this to end, and whatever it may be, it can be very, very confusing for those family members, especially if this isn't something they know about, right? Not everyone is informed about antagonism or toxicity or difficulty or whatever the hell you want to call this, right? Most people don't get that. All they see is like, wait a minute, you mean I'm not gonna see the grandkids at every vacation, you know, every holiday. That's what they're seeing, right? They're seeing that disruption in the status quo. And very few families are so sophisticated, but they can have the conversation on that level. They just see a disruption to something that was working. And again, that can be a real source of grief. And I I will say to people, if you feel safe with your family to sit down with them and say, okay, I didn't want to speak badly about them to you, but I'm gonna have to really lay out for you what happened in this relationship. If, however, your family system is also antagonistic, you're not gonna be able to get through to them. And if anything, this is just gonna be one more weaponized way for them to say, see, you're the problem, kind of thing. One more place for them to get a dig in. And this just becomes that landscape of grief that occurs. Now, in the luckiest, luckiest people, the antagonistic person kind of gets the ears of the person, the of a person's own family. And that family says, wait a minute, what's happening here? Like they're saying all this weird stuff about you, and you're able to say, okay, this is what's going on, and they hear you, and it all comes to a nice resolution. But I got to tell you, that's the minority of cases where that happens. But a lot of it comes down to people sort of not wanting the status quo have gotten disrupted. And if you yourself are being private about it and not giving the gory details to your family, and someone else comes along and gives what feels like a plausible version of events, some people will glom onto that and say, well, at least someone's explaining to me what's happening. So you have to be ready for that. And so in cases where you feel safe enough with your family, you don't have to come in with the cavalry and say, like, hey, all these terrible blah, blah, blah, gaslight, blah, blah, blah, narcissistic. You don't have to say that and say, listen, this was, this was, this was tough. And over time, this and this, stick to behaviors. This and this happened, and it left me feeling this and this. And you even notice some of the changes in me. And I had to make that painful decision of what would be healthier for me and the kids, and this is the path we're taking, presenting it in a very, very sane way. Um, again, if you have a moderately sane family, they'll hear it. But the more you leave the family in the dark about what's happening, they're going to glom onto anything they're given. And a a difficult, manipulative, antagonistic ex-partner will get in there, and especially if they have any kind of relationships or friendships with people in your own family.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah, that's a really good point about how family members are attracted to the status quo and they want things to go back the way they were. And so if you're seen as the one who made the decision, then in some ways they feel resentment towards that. And so that already gives maybe the other side a bit more of an advantage in terms of their storytelling.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

So moving to best interest, you are an advisor to the best interest co-parenting app. And we've been working on it for a while now. And I wanted to ask you, what drew you to wanting to become an advisor to best interest, and how do you see it supporting co-parents?

SPEAKER_01 32:56

When you first showed it to me, I I was absolutely intrigued with this idea of it was it was like as close to what I've always wanted, which was sort of a narcissism communication decoder ring, right? You know, this sense that something could sort of take the message, strip the hostility and cut to the facts, or teach someone how to stick to the facts. Because the fact of the matter is, is when even a person who regards themselves or conducts themselves as healthy gets pulled into an antagonistic relationship, behavior deteriorates. And you may find yourself almost getting right there in the mud and communicating in ways that aren't healthy and having something say, you want to try this a different way. It's funny, I think that texting somehow subverts our frontal lobes, right? We just bop, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, boom. And somehow being interpersonally in someone's face, the facial cues, the presence of a three-dimensional other human being, our central nervous system kicks in in a very different inhibitory way. But when we're tapping on a piece of glass and plastic, that inhibition doesn't happen. So this was that that, especially for healthier people, that that ability to almost like affix this sort of pseudo-frontal lobe on it and say, there's another way to say this. And at the same time, people who are feeling deeply, deeply triggered by these really angry messages. But at the core of the message is, what time does the ballet class end? And you have to sort through all of this cruelty and meanness and criticism to really get to the what time does the ballet class end? That's really what jumped out at me is that this is one of those times where AI was going to be able to jump in and you'd get that machine learning, learning how to like, this is how these people communicate, but also how can we sort of keep pulling out the the facts, really pulling out the facts in a situation where the best interest of children is really the focal, like really it is what time is the ballet pickup at? What am I supposed to bring to the potluck? Um, are we supposed to bring gifts to this birthday party? Those are really the only questions that need to be answered. And so that an app could get in there and provide a tool for people, um, it just felt like an interesting first step to sort of trying to kind of de-escalate what can actually be for many people, find that these, that the communication with an ex over some of the most mundane things, like do they need to take their cleats, ends up that ends them up so feeling like I need an EMDR session. And all I wanted to know is, did we need to bring the cleats today? And so it's small things turning into these really triggering, upsetting circumstances and also in the same breath, that it it also becomes that wake-up call to say, you don't need to do this too. You can stick to just the facts and say the socks and the cleats are in the cloud.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah, it's keeps the business-like aspect of co-parent communication at the forefront and strips out all that cruft that doesn't really help.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Correct. It it it it it really and that was to me that that's what intrigued me. And again, you know, you and I have talked about what gets makes this tricky, because in a way, it's not as it's not as though an antagonistic or manipulative person doesn't have the ability to um communicate in a healthy way. They're choosing not to. And so, you know, this they're not always going to want to play nice, but that's okay. It doesn't mean that a person who is in a relationship and is feeling like, I just wanna, I just want to make this cleaner and cleaner and and healthier, and can even have that opportunity. And one thing I really like about best interest is that it can be used to filter the text from a difficult um uh uh ex. So you can read very quickly the healthy version. Remember, ballet pickup is at three o'clock. But later on, if you choose, the whole toxic message is there for you to read. And maybe you do that in your therapist's office, maybe you do that with a friend, maybe you do that in the evening once the kids are asleep, but you're not in you're not sitting in the middle of a busy day, in the middle of a meeting, just sort of frozen, but you're like, yep, three o'clock versus the entire litany of stuff. Um, and then get to that in your own time. It's not as though you're being kept from it, but there's a time and a place. And I think a lot of people in these relationships are really triggered by these really, really um awful text messages. I mean, all of us have gotten really toxic, unhinged text messages from people, maybe not exes, but from people. And it can, I mean, it it it can completely throw your day. You could be at work and have made the mistake of looking at your phone and you'll be thrown off for the rest of your afternoon or whatever it may be. And so ruminate about it, or it could get in the way of you doing, you know, a presentation or what, or you might forget to do something else. So some way of managing this. Because here's the thing one thing best interest really, really reminds us is he ain't gonna change them. So maybe we can change some of the, some of the some of the the uh guardrails around the communication.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

That and you know, I also really love this concept of in the challenge, there is growth and healing that's available, right? So if I if I do get take that original message, maybe when I'm in a in my therapist chair, I can work through what that's trying to teach me, right? Work through those triggers so I grow stronger.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

I I could I couldn't agree more. I think that what because listen, somebody sending you an angry two-page text that's really about belly pickup is at three, is going to be uncomfortable for anyone. But triggers are very specific to us. You know, they could they could relate to family of origin issues, they could relate to a general lack of safety in the world, it could be bringing up old patterns in the relationship, whatever it is. It does become a really interesting tool to take that part of the communication into a place where you can say, okay, I want to work on this and also have the benefit of a therapist being able to say, okay, how does it feel when you you read this and what's happening in your body? Like I do, I think it becomes a really interesting tool. In the past, Saul, what I've had people do is they just bring the original text they got in and they never got a filter on it, right? And so they said, I've been sitting on this for four days and stewing and ruminating. Would be interesting to make it you know, to make it so that people could say, okay, I'm gonna just bring this into therapy on Tuesday and we're gonna open it up together.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

Well, I think we're wrapped we should be wrapping up now. Um, I'm curious if you have any additional things, any topics that you'd like to cover before we close out that we didn't cover in our interview.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

I think that one of the most difficult parts of co-parenting when it's a very difficult, more emotionally fraught situation is that everyone's holding out that there's an idea that there's some perfect path forward that they don't know about, that there's some clean, clear, healthy, it gets figured out, it's fair, they'll get the custody agreement they want. And I think that the sheer amount of disappointment that happens constantly in these circumstances is overwhelming for people. And I also think that there's a helplessness, the sense of they are saying terrible things about me, and this is hurting my relationship with my child, that kind of thing. There is so much pain around that because there's so much helplessness. And I think one I want people to know that there's no magical thing you could have done, right? This is an another human being, and yet you can only, especially in these cases, there's that you can only you can only intervene so much. And if anything, if the to the degree that they know they're getting to you, it can often be a lot worse. And our family court systems have not caught up to this. They do not understand. And frankly, Saul, even if they did understand, they still are they're they're still stuck with the family code as it's written. And so it is a um, I think a lot of people, there is uh this interminable grief that some of the decisions being made by an entity like this are being made in a way that they know are going to have long-term implications for this child. And there is there there is a there's so much, again, anger, grief, a sense of injustice. And it if it we see all of this in people who have survived trauma as well, is that that's why mental health intervention does become so important. And people say, why do I have to get therapy? There's nothing wrong with me. I'm in a messed up situation. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you, but when we are having to navigate situations that are this inequitable, unfair, unseeing, sometimes just having a validating voice of someone who's not a friend or someone who's not going through it with us. For example, even a family member who feels equally helpless, you're sort of two of you are drowning together. And the idea of having professional guidance is I think a lot of people think, oh, I'm going to therapy like I'm the one with a problem. But I don't think I have a problem. I think I'm having an appropriate reaction to a messed up situation, to which I say, absolutely. Yes, you are. It is a messed up situation. And yes, you're having an appropriate reaction. But having someone being an objective, validating voice can sometimes be what just helps people say, okay, at least for this one more week, I realize I'm not crazy. And that can go a long way and help you be more present with your children. Um, and it's a wild ride and it doesn't always feel fair. And so I think that that's what it's it's helping people prepare for something that's going to feel really unfair and unjust for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Dr. Romani, thank you so much for being on and uh hope you have a wonderful day. Thanks, you too. Thank you so much.