Sol (00:01)
Today on Coparenting Beyond Conflict, I'll be talking with Dr. Donald A. Gordon, the Executive Director of the Center for Divorce Education and a clinical psychologist with over 40 years of experience helping families navigate divorce and conflict. His evidence-based trainings empower co-parents and improve outcomes for families facing the challenges of separation. Widely published, Dr. Gordon is a leader in creating impactful interventions for families in transition. Together,

We'll explore strategies for healthier co-parenting

and the communication tools that make a real difference. I learned a lot in this episode. I think you will too. Let's dive in.

Sol (00:35)
Thank you Dr. Gordon. I look forward to speaking with you.

Don (00:39)
Yeah, I look forward to it too.

Sol (00:41)
Dr. Gordon, I'm always really curious when I talk to divorce professionals like yourself, how they got into this industry of supporting co-parents. What inspired you to establish the Center for Divorce Education?

has its mission evolved over the years?

Don (00:56)
Well, Two things: inspired me. One was my professional work. I was involved with the treatment and prevention of juvenile delinquency. I noticed We were doing family therapy in the homes of delinquents following an evidence-based model. My doctoral students would go into homes and do family therapy. We noticed that In almost all these families,

the biological father wasn't present. The parents separated or divorced and the child was not in contact with the biological father. From what I knew about the research literature, that's a big risk factor for delinquency. I figured if we want to prevent delinquency, we should make sure that when the parents split up that the father stays involved.

So we decided to develop an educational program for divorcing parents that would convince the mothers and the fathers about the importance of the father's continued involvement and the risk to the kids if they weren't involved. That was the stimulus for doing the program. It was to foster delinquency prevention and improve child adjustment. I'm a child psychologist, so I was interested in that.

The other factor was that my personal experience, I went through a high conflict divorce and it was pretty traumatic for everybody. My colleague at the university, Jack Arbuthnot, he also went through a divorce, but they went the joint custody route. So they cooperated and shared their son, went back and forth about 50-50. Then this is in the days where that was more uncommon. This is back

in the early eighties. So he was doing it, I did it the wrong way, he did it the right way. So we figured we need to develop a course for divorcing parents that teaches them to co-parent the right way, to have a divorce in which they're cooperating, in which they're not exposing their kids to conflict. And we discovered that loyalty conflicts were the worst part of divorce for kids, where the kids are put into loyalty binds and they can't love both parents at the same time.

They have to kind of choose sides. So that's what we focused the course on It was my personal experience and then my professional experience with delinquency. So that's how I got into it.

Sol (02:56)
You mentioned about loyalty curious if you could tell us more about, how does a loyalty conflict come up in a co-parenting situation? What does that look

Don (03:05)
We've, identified the four most common ways that that comes up and we put that into the program. One is by using the child as a messenger. The parents don't want to talk to each other. So they tell their child to talk to the other parent and give them the message. And quite often there's a lot of emotion when they're telling their child to talk to the other parent. So the child's pretty anxious about having to say something to the other parent

that they know that parent is not going to like. Like, "I got to tell my dad that he can't come pick me up Friday. Mom's made plans with me" and the kid's dreading telling his father that. So that's one way the child's the messenger. Another way is the parent criticizing the other parent to the child. You know, "your mother is so lazy, she only thinks about herself. She's so disorganized."

So they're criticizing the other parent to the child, not realizing that the child is identified with both parents and those criticisms apply to the child. that's a second way. A third way they do it is to question the child about the other parent's personal life, particularly when they're dating. And they wanna know, "is mom's new boyfriend spending the night at your mother's house?"

The child's quite often aware that if they tell the truth, that parent is not going to be happy. So they're to be dealing with an angry parent if they tell the truth. Those are three of the four ways. The fourth way is criticizing how the other parent spends "why didn't your father buy you some shoes

instead of getting his car detailed? You really need some new shoes" or "why didn't he buy you some new clothes instead of taking his girlfriend on this trip?" They'll criticize and the child can't do anything about that. So they're caught in the middle of this. And we've also found out through our research that the parents are not aware they're doing this. They're not aware that it's stressful for the child and not aware of the bind it puts them in.

was really illuminating to find out that parents were doing this and they're not aware they're doing it and that children are very much aware.

Sol (04:57)
it sounds like the parents aren't aware, the children aren't aware. There really needs to be more awareness about this.

Don (05:02)
Right. We teach in the class, we teach the parents to give their children permission to speak up when they feel caught in the middle, to train their children to use "I" messages to state how they're feeling about being caught in the middle. And when children do that, it kind of catches the parents up short, and they stop, and they realize that they've been doing something that stresses their child.

It's a really good way to have it happen because it's affecting the child and the child speaks up and then the parents know that they've been doing it. Very few parents intentionally want to hurt their children. So it was really a pretty easy task for us. We just simply made parents aware they were doing something that was harmful to the kids. They didn't know it and then they're motivated to change it. And that's really the main focus of the children of the short four hour program that we teach.

It's also in the eight hour program. So these loyalty binds are a major focus.

Sol (05:55)
Now for a listener that might be tuning in and now wondering, it's unintentionally done by parents, am I doing that? How might I self-identify so that I know that your program would be helpful for me?

Don (06:08)
Look at those four situations. Do you ask your child to carry messages? Do you criticize the other parent to your child? Do you criticize the way they spend money? And do you grill your child about the other parent's personal life? Our research shows those are the most common ways it happens and it happens in most divorcing situations. We think the best way to teach parents about that they're doing that

is to show them video scenes, very realistic scenes of divorcing parents having conflict. They're looking at these scenes, they're seeing the parents doing this, and then the host points out that this is what's going on and it's harmful for kids. So the parents, by seeing other parents doing it, they're more open to it because they're not being criticized. It's the other parents in the video that the host is criticizing. So it's a way to get past their defenses,

and allow them to see what they've been doing. They also realize that, if they're identifying with these parents in the video scenes, this must be a common situation. They wouldn't have made a video about it. They don't feel so badly because a lot of parents do this. We basically make them aware of it without shaming them into thinking, "my, I'm a horrible parent." No, you're doing something that most parents do.

And it's a pretty simple fix and you can do it.

Sol (07:19)
It sounds like these sorts of behaviors really do have a strong impact on the outcomes for children. I'm curious, how might I identify that in my own child if they're experiencing this type of behavior maybe on the other side at the other home?

Don (07:32)
If they're experiencing what kind of behavior?

Sol (07:35)
Like if they're experiencing loyalty conflicts in the other home, how might I see that in in my child?

Don (07:41)
Your child is reluctant to show excitement about seeing the other parent. They cover it up. They don't ask to see or talk to the other parent when they're with you, because they're afraid it might make you angry. They don't volunteer information about what they do with the other parent,

because perhaps in the past you've reacted negatively to that. So, some of things to look for. And that's more true of older children who are really good at picking up on stuff. The younger children more likely just blurt out, "mommy took me to this with her boyfriend" and real excited. Whereas an older child would say, I shouldn't mention the boyfriend, dad's not gonna wanna hear that.

Sol (08:22)
Dr. Gordon, have you coached parents on how to communicate with one another, how to create a better relationship between the co-parents?

Don (08:29)
Yes, in this high conflict program, there's eight different scenarios that they're seeing on video. They see a scenario with some conflict and then there's two different ways of resolving it. And they have to choose which way they would use to resolve it. One way is another poor solution and one way is a good solution using skills. So when they pick the good solution,

the hosts point out the skills the parents are using and so that parents will see these parents on the screen using skills to resolve it. And the skills that we teach are "I" messages where when a parent has a problem with the other parent's behavior, they state their feeling about it instead of criticizing the other parent. They'll ask them to make a change. "The next time you're gonna be late, would you call me and let me know

that you're going to be late? I worry when you're supposed to be here at 10 o'clock, you don't get here until 11. I worry something's happened. Our child was worried. Would you call me ahead of time?" instead of saying "you thoughtless SOB, you're, I can't believe you're this late. You don't care about anybody else." Well, that's not going to invite a productive conversation that solves the problem. That's just going to invite defensiveness and most likely a counter attack.

So using a skill like "I" messages will diffuse that. Another skill that parents find really helpful is self-talk. Before they get into a situation where they're gonna call this other parent, they talk to themselves about what they want to accomplish. They give themselves some mental preparation. If they find themselves getting upset, they'll tell themselves, I need to take a couple of deep breaths.

I need to relax my shoulders and my neck because I'm getting tense. I want to stay calm when I'm talking to her on the phone. So self-talk is useful. Another one is active listening, where the parent paraphrases what the other parent said to let them know they really heard them. And that's a skill that promotes closeness and cooperation and respect. If you're talking to someone and someone

reflects back what you said, you know they were listening to you. And we all wanna be heard. There's a fellow named Warren Farrell, who offers courses to couples who are on the brink of divorce. The main thing he teaches these couples is to be able to do active listening when the other parent is criticizing you.

So when they say something critical, if you can listen to that and not counter attack and not get defensive, but simply repeat back what you heard, you're taking them seriously, that really improves the relationship. After parents do that and get good at that, they decide they're not going to file for divorce. So it has a major impact in a relationship. So teaching active listening is something we do in the program. Self-talk, "I" messages, another skill we teach is stop, look and listen.

Where you find yourself starting to get triggered, you tell yourself to stop, take a deep breath, look around and what are your options for responding? Consider the different ways you can respond. The lesson is listen to your better nature. Have your best self respond. they find that skill, stop looking and listen, helpful also. We also teach them about reframing. When the other parent does something,

don't assume their motives are negative. Think about some other motives they might have for what they did. People who have conflict have a tendency to assume the worst about other people's motives. We've all been around people like that, and maybe we're like that ourselves. That doesn't promote a good relationship to assume someone has negative motives. So those are examples of some of the skills, and we teach them throughout this eight-hour program, and they're repeated.

These skills that we're teaching are repeated in most of the different scenarios, so repetition is key to them remembering the skills.

Sol (11:53)
It sounds like the program that you offer, this is an elective program. People can just go to your website and they can download it and watch it.

Don (12:02)
Yes, they can. Most

people who get there are ordered to by a judge or a parenting coordinator or a therapist or an attorney. But the majority are ordered by a judge. Parents don't know about it unless some divorce professional tells them about it. We get very few parents who just find the program on their own. So if your parents are looking for it, they should go to

HighConflictSolutions.com.

Sol (12:27)
I wanted to ask you too, when it comes to communication and co-parenting relationships, they exist on a spectrum, right? I think everyone at some level has some conflict at the beginning of the divorce. And as they proceed, maybe that dies down in their co-parenting relationship. And then there are others that just kind of exist on this high conflict spectrum, really forever, either due to, you know, narcissism or some other type of behavioral issue.

Don (12:41)
Yes.

Sol (12:50)
I'm curious, how does your advice cater to the different levels and different ranges of a co-parenting relationship?

Don (12:57)
Well, the majority of people, the conflict will diminish over the first year. It'll go down quite a bit and people just get tired of the stress and arguing and they're moving on with other aspects of their lives or they're not feeling the strong sense of betrayal and fear. A lot of people going through fearful. They're afraid of losing their assets,

their ability to make a good living, and they're afraid of losing their children. When both of those things are on the table, most of us get scared and we're not functioning our best when we're afraid. That fear dissipates when they find out, okay, I can make ends meet. I did find a cheaper place to live. I can make the payments or I got an extra job. Or if they're having regular contact with the children, they lose that fear that they're gonna

not see their kids anymore. Now for the people who remain in conflict over a period of years, like you mentioned, a lot of it might be they're dealing with a personality disorder in their co-parent or in themselves like narcissism. It's very difficult to deal with those parents.

One of the reasons we keep on repeating the skills in the program is so that in spite of the conflict, they can remember to use the skills. We have the surveys we give parents to fill out after the program. One of the questions we ask them is how likely do you think you'll return to court as a result of taking this course? And two thirds of the parents said they don't think they'll return to court. So they think the course has given them the tools they need

to stay out of court. That's very powerful. Now, some of them, they don't think they'll return to court, but they do. A lot of times people will think they're going along fine. And then their co-parent starts dating someone that they really dislike. They have worries about their children's safety and mental health around this new person. And

the other parent isn't interested in hearing their opinion about their new partner. So they'll often go to court to change the parenting time schedule, the amount of parenting time, or even to change custody. So those are some of the things that come up.

Sol (14:57)
Well, what I'm hearing through all this is that one of the big things that causes people to get back into conflict is communication and that a co-parent who is perhaps finding themselves going back to court or there's threats of it that perhaps going through a program like this or also working on the way they communicate, they can help reduce the amount of court time that they might be experiencing.

Don (15:18)
Yes, One of the things that we do is we really make a point of teaching the parents about the impact of their ongoing conflict on their children. We teach them the children are releasing cortisol when they're exposed to conflict. After parents have an argument that the kids either see or hear, the cortisol stays in their system for 72 hours.

So when they go to school, after this argument, the cortisol interferes with their ability to pay attention and to learn and to regulate their own emotions. So they're more likely to have emotional regulation problems themselves, and they're more likely to be inattentive in school. And parents are surprised to learn that, and they don't want to set their kids up for school failure. So that's an example of one of the things we show-

the impact on kids. Another way we show that is we have children in the program talking about their feelings about the parents' conflict and their feelings about the divorce. At the end of the program, a child writes a letter to their parents about how the divorce has impacted them. And that brings out lot of tears in the parents who are watching it. They haven't been aware of what impact it had. So,

putting a focus on the children and the impact on the children, hearing directly from the children, parents tell us that that's very impactful.

Sol (16:29)
Yeah, that sounds really motivating. Cause like you said earlier, every co-parent cares about their children. Obviously these days, a lot of communication between co-parents occurs electronically, either email or texting or even an app.

Some of the communication techniques that you talked about already, how do those impact electronic communication? Is it the same type of techniques or because of the change of technology, has that changed your perspective?

Don (16:58)
were not evaluating how parents use technology differently after the course. But we recommend that when they talk on the phone use these skills and when they send emails to use these skills, I think the way you're using AI to help parents monitor their

their text and email communication is brilliant. And they need that kind of feedback because they'll often trigger each other in emails. Email has an advantage over just calling the other parent and talking because it gives you a chance to think before you talk. But there's lots of ways in which you insult and anger the other parent in your email and having technology like AI find

the errors, find the parts of the communication that are off-putting is really, really helpful. If I could incorporate that technology in our program, I'd be inclined to do it. So I'm looking forward to hearing more about how you're doing that.

Sol (17:50)
Awesome.

Sol (17:53)
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get 10 % off with code Beyond10. Link in the show notes.

Sol AI (18:15)
And now, back to the show.

Sol (18:17)
You mentioned about electronic communication. I'm thinking about how it does have the benefit of giving you the chance to put a pause on it, maybe even sleep on it and then respond later. But then there is the disadvantage that you can respond immediately while you're in trigger. Which is a

Don (18:32)
Right.

It's really important. One of the things that we do, a lot of times people will discount something, new information, if they have personal experience with it. When you're talking to people about parenting, everybody's got their own experience with parenting, and they're resistant to changing their parenting. To get their attention,

you need to give them information that they didn't know and it's credible. What we do is we use medical science and neurology to give parents information about how their brains work. And they're fascinated by this. We teach them about the amygdala, which is the center for fight, freeze or flight, and how the amygdala, call it an amygdala hijack.

It hijacks them making a wise response because they're triggered. And when their amygdala is triggered, their prefrontal cortex, which is where you find empathy and compassion and problem solving, that's not operating. The signals from the prefrontal cortex are not getting through because the amygdala is in charge. We have animation that shows that, that teaches them about that. They really find that fascinating and they realize, this is why I lose it.

My brain is doing something that it's supposed to do. It's supposed to keep me safe. But my life really is not in danger. So I don't need to be reacting this strongly.

Sol (19:45)
Listening to you talk about collaborative co-parenting and teaching co-parents how to get to that place, I'm wondering, are there any situations where you would advocate for a parallel parenting solution as a way to avoid impact on the kids with ongoing conflict?

Don (20:02)
at higher levels of conflict, we recommend parallel parenting and we recommend that they're basically only communicated to exchange necessary information. tend to pretend like this is a business partner, you have a business-like relationship, stay out of the other parent's personal life.

Don't invite the other parent to do something. Simply exchange the information you need to, to work to do your parenting time exchanges and medical information and school information. So we talk about the importance of this bit of this parallel parenting, which makes it less likely that they're gonna get triggered. And then over time, if they're able to this successfully, then it can move toward cooperative or collaborative parenting. But quite often initially in the first few months after divorce,

a lot of parents should be in parallel parenting instead of collaborative parenting.

Sol (20:53)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Don (20:54)
I mean, the goal is collaborative parenting. The goal is them appreciating and supporting the other parent's efforts to help their child and letting them know that it's a tough job and they appreciate the other parent's efforts in doing that. And they can work more as a team and to make them aware that they're gonna be parents for life, for this child's life and weddings and the child getting a

a job, looking for a house, they're going to be part of all that. And they're going to be wanting the same goals. So reminding them that this is a lifelong relationship, you need to nurture it. You need to give it some respect. You need to give it some attention. So that's ultimately the goal. We want parents into a cooperative co-parenting relationship instead of parallel parenting.

Sol (21:37)
Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't end at 18, right? I think a lot of co-parents think that it does. Yeah.

Don (21:41)
Right. Yes, yeah.

And the ones who've been cooperatively parenting, you're more likely to have the non-residential parent kicking and paying for college expenses than if they're not. One of the risks of divorce is that children are less likely to go to college. Because of the cost of that and if their parents are in conflict, one of the parents is not going to be helping out with those expenses.

Sol (22:02)
How do your programs help co-parents with self-regulation skills so they can stay calm?

Don (22:09)
Good question. We teach them several methods for, reducing their stress. One of the ways is, breathing, becoming aware of their breathing, taking slow deep breaths. show examples of that. That's probably the most effective thing to do where you're taking mindful breaths, which means you're only paying attention to the breathing. You're not thinking about something else.

Everyone can take at least one mindful breath. Just inhale and exhale and think of nothing but the feeling of the breath or the sound of the breath. Then you can add another one, then a second breath, a third breath, a fourth breath. When you get good, you can go 10 breaths where you're not thinking about anything else. You will feel noticeably calmer after doing that. So that's one way. Another way we teach them to lower their stress is don't assume that the other parent has negative motives.

If they're late to meet you, to exchange the child, figure they may have run into traffic. They may have left their phone somewhere and had to go back and get it. And that's why they didn't call you. Give them the benefit of the doubt. For people we care about, we give them the benefit of the doubt all the time. Maybe during the marriage they did that, but when you're divorced and you're on guard, you're less likely to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Another technique we teach them is this other parent is behaving in a way that's threatening to you and you're intimidated, is to imagine they shrink down into the size of a miniature person. And instead of being big, they're really small and see the humor in that. So using your imagination to decrease the threat. Another method we teach people is to tune into their senses, to pay attention to all the sounds you're hearing.

Pay attention to what you're seeing, the sun outside, the leaves on the trees. If they can get in touch with their senses, that'll put them into the here and now. When they're in the here and now, they're more likely to feel okay and safe. Those are some of the methods that we teach to people to calm themselves down. Getting exercise, working out, going outside, being in nature. As often as you can, get outside

be in nature. Get into a forest. If you live near a forest, the Japanese call it forest bathing. Let the forest bathe you. Get good sleep. Eat a healthy diet. Quite often people going through divorce will have really bad habits. They'll eat junk food. They'll drink too much, smoke too much, and all of that increases their stress and hurts their health and hurts their sleep.

So we give them some general advice like that about how to stay healthy. And say if they're healthy, they're better able to serve their child's needs and they're better able to deal with the other parent.

Sol (24:40)
Yeah, that all sounds so helpful. Dr. Gordon, in regards to that, one of the themes that we talk about on this podcast a lot is keeping your side of the street clean. Even in facing a very challenging co-parenting situation, there's always a responsibility for an individual co-parent to do their best to focus on their own growth, accountability.

What are some ways that you might recommend that a parent can do that?

Don (25:06)
As I mentioned before, making sure they're getting adequate sleep, making sure they're getting adequate exercise, moving around. A lot of what we know about health is don't be sedentary, move around. Every half hour, get up and walk around. If you're at a desk in an office, go outside, take a break.

Come back in, keep moving. You're better off if you move a little bit every half hour, then every two or three days you go to the gym and work out for an hour or two. The more frequent movement is better for you than the irregular or less frequent workout at the gym. Another way is develop a meditation practice where you learn to spend time every day,

five minutes to 20 minutes, a couple times a day, ideally, where you sit down and you clear your mind. And you can go online on YouTube and you can see advice about how to meditate. And meditation is basically spending time not pursuing, not going down rabbit holes, but calmly breathing and focusing on the here and now, the sound of your breath, or if you have a mantra to repeat the mantra.

It's not a time to problem solve. It's a time to take a break, take time out, and just let your body calm down. That has very strong health effects, mental health effects and health effects. And actually evidence that it grows new neurons in your brain. You can actually repair some damage from trauma in your past by meditating. It can grow new neurons in the brain.

Sol (26:30)
I wasn't aware of that. That's so interesting.

Don (26:32)
Yeah, so, our program shows the different ways that children are traumatized and parents are traumatized, but also gives them hope by saying there are things you can do to reverse the effects or limit the effects of this trauma. Most people have some aspects of trauma in their background and there's the ways they can do that. There's a really good book called No Bad Parts by a man named Dr. Schwartz.

It talks about, in growing up, we develop ways when we're children, when we're afraid, to keep ourselves safe, but as we become adults, we're still using those methods and they're no longer appropriate. So if you can recognize that, you can stop doing the things that you used to do as a kid to make yourself safe and start using your energy for your current life. So there's a whole area of personal growth is such a huge area. There's so much information.

Sol (27:14)
Hehe.

Don (27:18)
We're getting ready to put into our programs a module on reducing stress in families. We'll have video clips showing different ways that people can reduce their stress. As most surveys show, the majority of adults in this country are experiencing significant anxiety or significant depression every day. The majority of people are. And this has been getting worse.

So we really need to use these methods for self-care. The stress isn't going to go away. We're always going to have something to worry about, whether it's the economy, whether it's climate chaos, whether it's our jobs, whether our children, our relatives, our health. There's going to be some source of stress that's going to be present all the time.

Sol (28:01)
And what I'm hearing through all of this is that by focusing on your own ability to manage your emotions and stress, that you will show up as a better parent and co-parent through that work.

Don (28:12)
Yes, definitely. Most important, you're able to attune to your children's emotions. If you're able to deal with your own stress, when your children are feeling stress, when they're worried or scared or angry, you're more likely to notice that. Kids are not really good at stating their feelings to their parents. So you have to be able to pick up on it in other ways. In order to emotionally attune to your children, you've got to be calm yourself.

Sol (28:16)
Mm-hmm.

Don (28:35)
Then if you're emotionally attuned to them, you can have good conversations, you can help them solve problems, you can help them feel heard and seen, help them feel supported, which is your responsibility as a parent. So taking care of yourself is really important to take care of your children. You know, when you're flying on a plane, they'll tell you when the oxygen masks drop down from the ceiling, you put yours on first before you help your child.

So you're able to function before you can turn around and help your child. It's the same principle.

Sol (29:06)
Do you have any communication strategies that you could offer to co-parents about talking with their children to help them to open up and communicate what's going on for them?

Don (29:16)
Yes, you do active listening. When a child talks to you, you reflect back what they said so they know you've heard. If you can simply describe, use non-directed play techniques. You describe what they're doing for a young child. "You're really stacking those bricks up. You're trying real hard to get them straight.

It fell over. You're to start over again and try to get that tower to be taller." So you reflect what the child's doing and the child feels that they're really cared for. The parent's really noticing them and that they're important. So talking to their child, reflecting what they say when they get to be older, get to be preteens and teens, you use that non-directed play in terms of conversations, reflecting what they're saying.

A lot of parents take their jobs as parents a little too seriously and they think they have to be constantly teaching their children and directing them and over parenting. There's a time and place for that, but the children also need to have the parents simply show interest in them and pay attention to them. My grandsons are really into video games like Minecraft and Roblox and

and they love it when I sit next to them and watch what they're doing and they want to show me that. It's really a challenge for me because I find those things so boring. It's really hard to pay attention for more than three or four minutes. I have to force myself to pay attention. But they just light up when I sit next to them and watch. And of course, they can go for hours doing this. Well, there's no way in the world I'm going to sit next to them for hours and doing it. But a little bit helps.

I try to play the games, I'm not very good at it. So I think it's important to be there, notice what they're doing, or just to sit next to them while they're doing something they enjoy. They're reading a book, sit next to them and read a book with them, put your arm around them while they're reading the book. So there's a lot of ways that we can communicate to them that they're important and that we love them.

Sol (31:02)
I'm taking notes here. I appreciate those insights.

So we're wrapping up here and I'm wondering if you have any resources that you'd like to offer to co-parents so they can find out more about you or your programs.

Don (31:14)
I mentioned the High Conflict Program. The website for that is highconflictsolutions.com And the general 4-hour co-parenting course is called Children in Between. The website for that is online.divorce-education.com

There's a new program we developed for kids to teach them emotional literacy and how to express their feelings and also how to calm themselves down. And it's called Children in Between for Kids. Parents use it with their children and it's a program that has animation in it. It has child hosts introducing each chapter

and it promotes emotional literacy so the parents and children can tune into each other emotionally and the parents can know what the children are feeling.

Sol (32:00)
Sounds really interesting and useful. What age group would that be for?

Don (32:04)
Good question, ages 7 to 14.

Sol (32:06)
Great. What a great resource. Any other resources that you'd like to offer listeners before we close out?

Don (32:11)
That's basically it. There's a general parenting program for improving your parenting skills. I developed a program called Parenting Wisely. And you can get information about that program at FamilyWorksInc.com. about three to four hours for a parent to do. They can log in and log off as often as they want,

and it teaches really good parenting skills to handle a variety of challenging child behaviors, particularly if your children is having some serious behavior problems. That program has a very good chance of resolving those problems.

Sol (32:43)
Great. Thank you, Dr. Gordon, for joining us today. I've really appreciated it. I feel like I've learned so much on today's program.

Don (32:49)
Happy to do it. Good to meet you.

Sol (32:52)
Thanks for joining us on the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. To support our show, subscribe or leave a rating. Links for all books and resources mentioned on appear in our show notes or on CoparentingBeyondConflict.com. See you next time.

Sol (33:10)
The commentary and opinions available on this podcast are for informational and entertainment purposes only, and not for the purpose of providing legal or psychological advice. You should contact a licensed attorney, coach, or therapist in your state to obtain advice with respect to any particular issue or problem.