Sol (00:00)
Today, I'm excited to welcome to the program Erika Wright, the founder of Healing Codependency. Erika offers a refreshingly honest and eye-opening take on codependency, her own healing journey with deep compassion and directness. I think the points she made today will really make you think about how you're showing as a parent and a It did for me. Let's dive in.

Sol (00:20)
Well, welcome, Erika. Thanks for coming on to the podcast.

Erika Wright (00:23)
Thanks so much Sol I'm so happy to be here.

Sol (00:25)
One of the questions I always ask professionals in this space is how did you get involved in helping people in this How did you get into codependency work?

Erika Wright (00:36)
Yeah, it's funny because as soon as you said professional inside, I was like, that's not me. I would never call myself that. And probably because of how I got into codependency work. I was born into such radically codependent circumstances that I

realized when it was finally time for me to accept that this was my offering to the world. Codependency has been

a master teacher and an enormous theme. I do have a podcast, but it's more autobiographical. It basically tells you what my life has been and what nine super pivotal, massively codependent moments have been. So, I really got the clue that this was what I

was born to do when, during the pandemic, I had to kick my then struggling alcoholic brother out of my house, which was a huge turning point for me. And in the wreckage / healing of that, I was like, Why is this what my whole life is about? What is going on? My husband was like,

Well, I don't know, baby. Maybe you should teach about it. You know, you learned so much from it. And I was like, yeah, but I can't because I'm not a blah, blah, blah, blah. And he was like, I don't know if anybody cares. And here we are.

Sol (01:55)
Yeah,

I think the most powerful teachers like yourself have gone through it themselves and they teach from that place.

Erika Wright (02:02)
Yeah,

yeah, that's that's what I teach from. I teach from a relentlessly intense and helpful and elevating life of codependency. And, you know, a lot of what I teach, it's obviously because I'm not a therapist, I do not take a psychological standpoint at all. And for me, it is a

behavioral, emotional, spiritual path.

Sol (02:27)
I'm imagining that while some people in the audience might understand what we're talking about, others may be earlier on the journey. They may not know. So from your perspective, what does codependency look like? What is How it impact co-parents?

Erika Wright (02:40)
I think the original definition for me, it's really expanded from that. The simplest way that I can put it is it is manipulation and control of someone else's feeling states and the manipulation and control of your own feeling states.

Sol (02:54)
So, so you're saying that as a codependent, I'm manipulative.

Erika Wright (02:59)
Yes, absolutely.

And I would also say most of the time, totally unconscious about that. Totally innocent about it. The other way that codependency has made itself known to me and available is it's the byproduct of hundreds of years of systems that have ended up being very oppressive, like white supremacy, organized religion,

settlerism, colonialism, patriarchy, capitalism... And if you look at, there's a place where all of those plug into our behavior, our thought process and our feelings, and they're very disempowering in their effects. And I feel a direct connection around codependency.

it's like the origin of this country. if you look at it, the colonization of it was to make a very certain group of people feel very powerful and everybody else feel very disempowered. Then all the systems were set up from there. I want to acknowledge that I teach from the experience of what I am, which in this incarnation anyway, I am a cis,

American lady, I'm certain the programming that I've received from that and as a result of that, I don't really pretend to know what other folks' experiences are, what looking like them or feeling like them made them into. But for me, I, very clear

about where codependency comes from and the innocence of it. I think a lot of it is unconscious. It's so ingrained in our society and in our culture that it's like being a fish in water.

Sol (04:36)
Totally. I can map this to my own experience in my own journey where I started experiencing problems in my marriage and with my therapist, she started working with me on codependency. I learned the term. And it was this enormous unraveling of my life. It told the story of my parents and their parents and

Erika Wright (04:47)
Yeah. Yeah.

That's

That's right. I really feel like coming from the starting place of - everybody's innocent, it levels the playing field. It softens the judgment. There is a lot to shake your fist at as a person and, go ahead. But as far as what has been instrumental to me in my healing is my ability to move forward has been

the innocence of everybody has been an essential part of that. Everything that I've ever done that was codependent, which was a lot, I was wrecking lives for a long time, was done out of wanting love, out of wanting to give and receive love and not really know what that is or how to do that in a way that didn't actually involve fear and manipulation. Because...

Non-codependency is essentially a practice of truth and vulnerability. And vulnerability is not something that is celebrated

here. Yeah, it's just like, well, what does that mean? You know, and being weak and the whole American thing: work harder and longer and pick up, your bootstraps or whatever the hell everybody says. But this idea that softening is bad.

Right? Yeah. Yes, yes. And it's safe. So then a path of non-codependency is being honest and vulnerable.

Sol (06:04)
Right. Or dangerous.

Erika Wright (06:13)
and loving.

Sol (06:14)
So a listener who, again, might not really grok codependency or see it in themselves, or maybe they've just learned the term, what are some of the common signs you see in people that are codependent and may not realize it? What are some of the behaviors?

Erika Wright (06:25)
Yeah. Yep. Okay.

So many. People pleasing, martyrdom, conditional and transactional love, expectation and disappointment, guilt and betrayal. This idea that you have to earn love, that relationships are hard, that

relationships are work that you're a problem or a burden. A lot of folks that I work with, they're hyper-vigilant in relationships because they're terrified that they won't earn their way.

Sol (06:58)
Yeah, and that's not true.

Erika Wright (06:59)
No, that's Catholicism, which is what I was raised, it's like there's a dude hanging on the wall for you right there. Look at the suffering. I mean, my, my Abuela used to have this huge, three foot statue of the agonizing of the Christ. And it was the bloody and it's just like, what? Really? This is what love is? How can this be?

Sol (07:19)
He did all this for you and you should love him.

Erika Wright (07:22)
So again, I think that there's a lot of innocence in that, that it's just love reaching out going is, is it though? Unraveling from codependency, the way I tell people, it's like being deconditioned from a cult. So almost always, when I give people some potential non codependent tools, like

tell the truth all the time and never lie. It's just like, I can't, I could never do that. I could not imagine my life without my commitment to doing a bunch of things that I don't want to do in the service of love. They made all that shit up.

Sol (07:56)
I that the is that I'll lose those relationships.

Erika Wright (07:59)
Yes.

Okay. So here's what's crazy. All human beings do the same one thing, the same two things. They're born and they die. There's no alternatives yet. So everyone that comes in with the meat suit has the same exact ending. And it is the thing

that we spend our lives the most terrified of, which is we're going to lose everything, everyone is going to go away, nobody will ever remember us, and there will be no sign of us eventually and all of the meaning that our lives were for us and the other people. And it's the absolute, fucking truth. Right?

Sol (08:41)
Wow. Yeah, yeah,

Erika Wright (08:43)
afraid that love is going to be taken away. And it is, but it's never in the way that they actually think. So it's like this really funny thing.

Sol (08:53)
We really want to matter to people.

Erika Wright (08:55)
Yes. And where things have led us is that mattering to other people outweighs mattering to ourselves. That you are in fact a better person if you care more about other people than yourself. Instead of it is possible to care about yourself

and other people and see the connection in that.

Sol (09:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Erika Wright (09:20)
Right?

Yeah, this is what's nuts about that. It's the simplest shit. And it's like the codependency is the thing that makes the simple complicated.

Sol (09:30)
Totally. And just getting to that authentic place, that's hard.

Erika Wright (09:35)
That's right.

Yes, okay, so I had this super obvious, not original revelation a couple months ago: me being non codependent has just meant I'm actually more of who I really am.

Sol (09:49)
And that's a great goal.

Erika Wright (09:50)
Yes. I think if someone had asked me 20 years ago, I'd be like, yeah, what are you talking about? Lying all day doesn't mean I'm not being who I am. It's for them, when it's exactly what it is.

Sol (10:00)
What's interesting about that Erika is, I know a lot of co-parents when they get divorced, there is a process of coming into a redefinition of who they are.

Erika Wright (10:08)
Yes, absolutely. And then also being available to receive the new version of the co-parent.

Sol (10:15)
Mmm, I like that. Tell me more about that.

Erika Wright (10:16)
Okay, yes.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, if you were in a marriage and you broke up, you're getting a new life. You're a new person and you're getting a new life. You don't actually know anything about that. And another thing that Americans don't like is the not knowing. Our culture celebrates experts, whatever the fuck that means.

Clearly now, the expert thing has been very blurred because it's apparent you can have any job you want and do whatever you want and no one actually knows what's going on, right? I'm just taking a stab at it here. I'm definitely not expert. So yeah, divorce is vulnerable, co-parenting is vulnerable, So what people do as a mechanism of protection is

Sol (10:50)
Me too.

Erika Wright (10:58)
I know exactly what they're like. They're gonna do this and then they're gonna do this, because they've always done this and this is why we broke up and then I'm like this and they are like this and that's why this is like this. None of it's true because everything has changed, but it's a way to keep yourself from feeling the vulnerability of I'm becoming a new person and they're becoming a new person and I don't know anything about it,

and that feels weird. I feel uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable for me to become

more of myself. Sometimes it's not your choice, right? Sometimes you become a co-parent and you had a whole different idea of what was happening. And maybe you didn't want to get a divorce.

Sol (11:38)
To make this a little bit more concrete, I've heard this a lot where a parent decides to get a divorce or a divorce is put upon them and they might have a certain relationship with their ex and that then that relationship shifts dramatically, They might have experienced, someone who was somewhat collaborative

Erika Wright (11:50)
Right.

Sol (11:59)
And then suddenly it's like they're dealing with a co-parent who is their enemy or their antagonist. Can you talk about that?

Erika Wright (12:12)
Yes. Non codependency is having a different relationship with reality. So codependency, all we do all day long is make up shit about people. That's what we do. They're like this, I'm like this, you're like this. Lizzo's like that. Taylor Swift's like that. George Bush is like that. This is what our brains do. We just make shit up. And we also do that with our children and we do it with our intimate relationships. There's a fantasy piece of us

that in evolution is doing something, and then there's the reality. Well, what is reality? Here is a person in front of me and they are showing me who they are right now like this. So in co-parenting, am I in a relationship with someone that

it was five years ago, or are they showing me who they are now, which they may have a different set of limitations, a different way of being, people change all the time. So people show you their point of practice, their capacity and their limitations by how they behave with you.

When you are in an evolving relationship, two people that were married, now they're not married, that relationship is changing, the children are changing, everybody's changing, it's really helpful to stay in the present moment and not draw on the past when you feel afraid.

What is the reality of this relationship offering me? Who is this person now?

And how can I show up as the new me in it?

Sol (13:43)
A lot of times people use the terms, narcissism alongside codependency. What about that? It doesn't seem like you really believe in those terms.

Erika Wright (13:51)
I do,

I do. But I also think that where we are, we now have more words than ever available to us to describe our experiences. So here's what I want to say about narcissism, real diagnosed, solid narcissism, not just someone that's being an asshole. Because you can throw that at anyone.

You can't have anything but a codependent relationship with them because they cannot see anything, anyone but themselves. That's narcissism. It's own thing. So most people who actually don't have that. They lack relationship skills. Who taught you how to be in relationship?

Sol (14:29)
Parents.

Erika Wright (14:29)
Okay, who taught them?

Sol (14:32)
Their parents.

Erika Wright (14:32)
Okay, do you see what a scope that is? We actually need lessons in how to be in relationship in new ways if we are not going to repeat what we have been shown. People think this is information that should just come to them through the air that they breathe. And it doesn't work that way. You have to learn the skill.

Sol (14:35)
Sure.

Erika Wright (14:57)
Just like in co-parenting, or parenting in general, if you're not just gonna do what was done to you, you need to learn how to not do that and do something else.

Sol (15:11)
I really want to underline that point because what I'm hearing is it's imperative if you are a co-parent dealing with some type of co-dependency, that you do some introspection, do some healing so that you don't end up transmitting that to your kids.

Erika Wright (15:26)
Yes,

how would you know otherwise? do you walk into a brand new job that you've never heard of before, that you've never done before, knowing nothing about it? No one would do that. No one would do it for money. So why would you do it for free? I've never been a co-parent before. My children have never been co-parented before.

Let's discover what the best way might be because most people draw on the past to inform them of the present. And that's gone. It doesn't apply anymore.

Sol (15:56)
So what are some examples of codependencies showing up in parenting?

Erika Wright (16:00)
Oh my God. It is plagued with. In my experience, and maybe I'm an old fucking Gen X lady, but for me, it's like, good kids and good parents, it's when the kid does what the parent says. If you do what I say, you're a good kid. If you don't do what I say, you're a pain in the ass and there's something wrong. Okay, right there.

it's a control-based agenda. And I just want to say here, there's so much stuff that's come out that's, you know, yes, the gentle parenting, but then how much shit should you take from your kid? I think we're in an experiment right now of trying to find out how to participate in a child's life in a non-controlling way

that you can be present for and that they are safe and no one has to lose themselves.

I have not achieved this. I'm just saying this is the direction I'm trying to go, with my parenting and my kids.

Sol (16:55)
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get 10 % off with code Beyond10. Link in the show notes.

Sol AI (17:18)
And now, back to the show.

Erika Wright (17:19)
Here is something I want to say that's very, very, very important. There has only actually been a few generations of human beings that have been born by people who got to choose to have them.

Sol (17:34)
Wow, that's a good point. Yeah.

Erika Wright (17:36)
I was born

in 1972. The pill, I think came out in 1971.

Prior to that, women were property. People didn't marry for love.

So this is a new thing. We are only a few generations in, if any, of people being born by their parents willfully.

Sol (17:57)
Wow.

Erika Wright (17:57)
That's gonna change parenting a little bit.

Sol (18:01)
Yeah, it's really unraveling control on so many different levels.

Erika Wright (18:04)
Right? So many

different levels. A lot of folks are aware of the intergenerational trauma of the matriarchal line, most of which is women who did not want to have children and didn't have a choice, trying their best to have a life that they did not choose.

So there's that in the background. And then here we are with the great privilege of at least right now being able to choose to have children and not have children, which just the simple, do I wanna have kids or not? That question's gonna get you where you wanna go for sure. And then, I want to have children and this is why.

Sol (18:43)
I would posit that most people, at least in our culture, don't even really give a lot of energy to that question, right?

Erika Wright (18:53)
Well, but what's great is now, especially as the person birthing the child, you have more

freedom in some states than you ever have before.

So I'm just throwing this out here and maybe we're off topic. What would the life of a child be like from a mother that desperately wanted them, knew exactly why and someone that had no choice.

Sol (19:18)
Yeah, very different energy.

Erika Wright (19:19)
Right. So this place we are in parenting of having the privilege to bring more consciousness to how we parent, ultimately will be seeing them as here for themselves.

Right? And not a thing to control, but perhaps an opportunity to steward.

Non-codependent parenting would look something like this. I accept you exactly as you are. I don't really know anything about it, but it's really fun to find out every day. I am present to this being a series of multiple opposing truths. So any day of my day, have two daughters. I have a four and a half year old. She's almost five and a seven year old. I am a 52 year old woman. I get it. Why

probably people shouldn't be having babies when they're 48. It's like menopause and toddlers. It's a whole thing. But the thing that I am present to is, I wanted these kids so much. I did everything to have them. It is the most wonderful thing in the world. It is by far the most annoying and inconvenient thing in the entire world. And all that pivots in like 30 seconds. I'm so glad. This is so great. Now we have to go to dance class. I hate it.

From 3:30 to 4:30, I am gonna be sitting in a lobby of a smelly dance studio going, fuck, I hate this, my God. What would it have been like if I just- you know, but this is what there is. So in codependency, we tend to live in a polarized world. You love it, you hate it. It's good, it's bad. You're in, you're out. It's up, it's down, Non-codependency is the acceptance of

holding multiple opposing truths all at the same time. Let's take co-parenting. I'm really glad we got divorced. I'm very, very sad. I'm scared and I don't know what's gonna happen. I know my new co-parent and I love our children very, very much. Sometimes I wish we were still married. I know this is the best thing ever and I really want to have a better relationship with them.

I really hope they go to therapy because they're driving me fucking nuts.

Sound about right? being able to have all of that be true and none of that be a problem. So every co-parent, can at any point decide that the other co-parent is not a problem. They might be a pain in the ass.

Sol (21:17)
Yeah, I think that would resonate a lot with our listeners.

Erika Wright (21:34)
They might be easy one day, they might be tricky, but it's just like, I'm in this with you. Some days I don't like it, but it's not a problem to solve.

Sol (21:44)
Yeah, it just is.

Erika Wright (21:45)
It is. And in the framework of non codependent, what's my part? What's here for me?

Because a lot of times, in my experience, personal and observed with the people I work with, your relationship drama has an opportunity to make you a person that you really like a lot more. Yeah, you don't have to like how the lessons feel or any of that. can suck. And wow, it's changing my life. I'm becoming more of myself

through this person being a total pain in the ass.

Sol (22:19)
Totally.

Yeah, through the pain we learn.

Erika Wright (22:21)
And the pain isn't a problem. You're not a problem, they're not. This is a learning curve. I'm accepting this person exactly as they are.

Here's the hard part. And I'm going to attempt to love them anyway.

Sol (22:34)
That's a tall order.

Erika Wright (22:35)
It is a tall order, but you know what's great is it's not a destination. It's an act of a lifetime practice. It isn't like, now I'm on love planet and I'm going to stay here because that's not real. I can have days where I don't feel that way. And then I feel that way in this moment. I just had a glimmer of that feeling.

And it's a North Star. It's a thing that I can center myself to.

Sol (22:56)
I'm going to push back on this, Erika, because a lot of co-parents that I've talked to are going through really intense situations. They're being dragged back to court for the 10th time. They're engaged in these really intense battles to stay in contact with the kids. It's hard to love that other person through that, but tell me.

Erika Wright (22:58)
Okay, yeah I do.

Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Sol (23:20)
What can we do?

Erika Wright (23:21)
Yeah,

The love isn't for their personality and their behavior. The love is the kid. Their love is in there and your love is in there and that's the love. You find the love by any means necessary.

There's only one reason to do that. You'll just feel better. It's the only reason. I wouldn't bother otherwise, it's a point of interest and focus. Yeah, this is not about loving someone's personality or any of trying to like them if you don't. It's that I'm gonna find the love.

Because that's what my kid is made of. I say so.

Sol (23:56)
Yeah.

I like that.

One experience I hear a lot in co-parenting is almost like a need to be inauthentic. you show up to court, you gotta pretend, you gotta put on your brave face and pretend like nothing's going on and don't show any emotion. And that's not being authentic, right? That sounds like codependency. Tell me more.

Erika Wright (24:12)
Yeah, I would not recommend that at all. I would never recommend that in a hundred years.

Well, in what universe are you supposed to be emotionally neutral about your children? It's an unspeakable thing to expect from someone. I wouldn't trust it. Really? This is the system that we live in? I would tell the truth about and feel all the feelings.

You're not taking your car in for an inspection. This is your child. And I also wanna say that this is where the patriarchy, I do believe, has made its roots in that emotion equals weakness equals something that's too feminine and makes everybody uncomfortable and to that,

I mean, fuck you. Yeah, so, you know, I think the best thing that there is to do always is tell the truth. And, there is a way for sure to, tell your truth and have your feelings and be concise or whatever, but, you know, people being made wrong

for having big feelings about the most important thing in their life is so toxic. It's so unreasonable and it's debilitating.

Sol (25:24)
That's just inauthentic.

Erika Wright (25:25)
Yeah, it can't be done. I don't think it should be done.

Sol (25:29)
Now, in these situations, there's also the experience of co-parents having to protect their children from even really knowing what's going on. Otherwise, there's the potential for parental alienation. And that's a form of inauthenticity.

Erika Wright (25:41)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Well, here's the thing. Everything depends. So if I'm saying there's no absolutes and it's all multiple opposing- it depends. It depends on the kid. It depends on their age. It depends on the circumstance. Basically the way that I do my life and I advise co-parents, especially when they're in really

intense sticky situations like that, is to trust your instinct with your kid

and just try to move forward in keeping them an active participant in their own life,

and reflecting back to them their power. 'Cause being a kid is hard. You don't really have a lot of choice. Where can I show my child that they are powerful in this process and keep them safe and be in a good way with the information that's actually true?

Sol (26:35)
Recognizing that they're having a completely different experience than us. Yeah.

Erika Wright (26:40)
Every time.

Yeah, our projections about them, I've come to realize that a lot of my stuff with my kids is me drawing on my own childhood.

Yeah, yeah, they're not having that childhood. So what I have to remind myself of is that's my stuff. That's not what's happening for them. And actually get into the habit of asking them, how's this feel for you? What do you think of this? What do you want to do?

Sol (26:50)
Totally.

Erika Wright (27:08)
You know, almost always with co-parents that come to see me or people in my group who are working on co-parenting, the first thing I ask them is, what does your kid want?

And almost always they're like, I don't know.

Ask them.

Sol (27:20)
Yeah.

Erika Wright (27:21)
What do you want? How does this feel? Do you like this? How would you like it to be? What would work better for you? How can we align ourselves to get this working better for you?

Sol (27:21)
That's what it is. Right.

Well and also recognizing that they have a completely different relationship with their parent, than you have with your co-parent. It might work out great for them.

Erika Wright (27:41)
Yes.

Yes, and this is why it's important to ask them about their own life and their own experience and then believe them. Don't override what they're telling you because you have assumed a position.

That's that fantasy piece. No, no, I know what he's really, there's no way he could be that nice to you. You're just a little... It's like what?

Sol (28:05)
We're very creative, aren't we?

Erika Wright (28:06)
Because all that mental work keeps us from the vulnerability, which is I don't actually really have control over anything and I love everybody so much.

Sol (28:16)
Hmm. So how do I get to become more vulnerable with the people in my life?

Erika Wright (28:21)
Well, there's one really easy thing that, well, it's not easy, it's simple, but there's one thing that you can do that will absolutely get you where you want to go. Okay, ready? You tell the truth about everything 100 % of the time.

And it's not the big, huge ones like telling your mom you don't want her to come for Thanksgiving or something like that. It's like, sure, that's a big one or whatever that might be. It's the, sure, I'll do that. Yeah, no problem. All those in a day. Yeah, I'll work the extra blah, blah, blah. Sure, I'll help you move. Yeah, I'll pick up the kids.

And first and foremost always, with yourself.

Sol (28:54)
Checking in with yourself.

Erika Wright (28:55)
Get clear about where you are lying to yourself. Where you're bullying yourself into things, where you're forcing yourself, yeah, where you hear a small tiny truth from yourself and you're like, nah, I can't do that. Nope, don't do that. Don't listen to that. Don't do that. Making snacks and shit for your kids doesn't count because that's just all you have. You have to. Until they can get their own snack. It's like changing diapers. Sorry. You cannot like it. You have to do it.

I'm talking about your dialogue with yourself. All the times you say yes when you mean no, or all the times you say no when you mean yes.

Sol (29:27)
You're bringing me to this insight around parts work and the way you describe this, it sounds like codependents really have a big bully inside themselves, but it's a lot easier to externalize that bully and say, no, they're the bully.

Erika Wright (29:36)
Yes.

Yeah, codependency requires that there be victims and perpetrators. The non-codependent practice would be, I give my power away, nobody takes anything from me. Every time I say yes when I mean no, nobody is doing that to me, I'm doing it to myself. I'm willingly giving that away.

And the great thing about that is you can stop doing that.

You stop doing it.

We have this idea. We do this thing, so we can't do another thing. And it's just, it's such bullshit. Let's just pick it apart for a minute, okay? You wanna go for coffee? No, I totally don't wanna go for coffee. You should go for coffee with them because you know the last time that you needed someone to talk to, they went to coffee with you.

Sol (30:12)
Please.

Erika Wright (30:22)
But I'm tired, I really don't want to, no, you should go. It's what a good friend does. Do remember that time that friend dumped you? You should go. Don't be an idiot, go. I really don't have the capacity, who cares? You can sleep in extra tomorrow, just go. Okay, that thing. As soon as you hear the no, okay? You're gonna reach for that thing and you're gonna go, I don't wanna do this anymore.

Do I have another option? And then here's the vulnerable option. I can't go to coffee with you and I'm afraid that because I'm saying no, you're gonna feel like I'm not showing up for you and I'm afraid that it will appear that I'm not holding up my end of the bargain in this relationship that I've created that you know nothing about.

And they'll go, what are you talking about? I love you, don't worry about it, whatever. And you'll go,

It's all me with me.

Sol (31:08)
Or that person will step away from the relationship. You'll lose a friend, but you'll be losing an inauthentic. Yeah.

Erika Wright (31:11)
Yes. Yes, you will lose a conditional transactional

codependent friend. Or they will say, I'm so glad you said that. I want to do that. I'm afraid too. I'm afraid if I don't go to dinner with Jimmy bag of donuts that, he's not going to be my pal.

So this is the way in. Who is your first line of business to be in a loving relationship with?

Yes. That's right. And again, we're right back to where we began. I can be loving with myself and everybody else. People's agreement or understanding of me has nothing to do with how much I love them. People can feel however they want to. One person's gonna be like, you said no to going to coffee with me. That's it, I'm out.

Sol (31:39)
yourself.

Erika Wright (31:59)
You don't hold up your end of the bag and it's just like, okay, I'm sorry you feel that way. If you ever want some love, I'm right here.

Sol (32:09)
And it's letting people create their own stories about us.

Erika Wright (32:12)
Yes, because they're doing it anyway. Yeah. How much do I buy into that?

Okay, and I want to be clear here. This is not a way to justify your wretched horrible toxic behavior.

It's not like, I'm a terribly behaved person, but no one understands me and you all can feel however you want about me, right? Here's the depends and it's you can spin it any way you want. But with the love at the center. Yeah, I can honor myself and be mindful that I have an impact on people at the same time.

Both exist.

Right?

Sol (32:46)
How do you encourage or how do you help your clients develop and trust that inner truth?

Erika Wright (32:52)
Well, it takes some time, because for me, a lot of my codependent behavior would cause me to continually abandon myself. You don't actually have a trusting relationship with yourself because you ignore all of your

wants and needs so that you can elicit feelings in other people. Folks have usually been doing that for a really, really long time. So it takes time to have your own back.

It takes time to build a trusting relationship with yourself. I'm the one that's going to keep me from doing things that I don't want to do. I have my own back in that way.

That's how you become a safe person for you, is that you no longer are willing to abandon yourself so that other people have a certain set of feelings about you.

It's exactly what you do for your kid.

They don't feel safe. I'm right here. I'm not going anywhere. I'll be right here. It's the same exact thing.

Sol (33:50)
Yeah, and in some ways I imagine it's a lot easier to give the type of love that we want to give ourselves to our kids.

Erika Wright (33:59)
So here comes my secret sauce for all of my codependent parents I want you to talk to yourself and be with yourself exactly like you do your kid.

So when your kid comes to you and is like, I suck, I can't do anything right, I'm failing at everything, what would you say to them?

And then say that to yourself. Be like that with yourself. When your kid's like, I'm having a hard time, I'm having big feelings, I don't wanna go to school, What am I gonna do about that? I think you're gonna be okay. Just be kind. You don't have to be with people that are mean to you. You don't have to play with anyone that you don't wanna play with. It's gonna be okay. I think you're the best person. We're gonna get through this.

Exactly like that. Yeah, it's not impossible. It's just a point of, it's you've made a rule for yourself. Well, I can be like that with them, but I can't be like that with myself. Really?

Sol (34:44)
What I love about that is that I'm sure many parents can relate to what you just described. They know how to love their kids. It's right there. They've already been doing it. It's just about turning that love onto themselves.

Erika Wright (34:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah!

Yes,

And deciding that that's what you're going to do. Accepting the position that that is your job.

A lot of codependent people assign themselves positions like, I'm taking care of my mother and my brother and that's what I've always done and that's what I'm gonna, well, you gave yourself that job. You can also fire yourself from that job. Yeah, so it's like, I'm a great parent. if you're a great parent and you know how to love your kids unconditionally, you absolutely have the capacity, the ability and the fortitude and the skillset to do that with yourself.

You just made up a rule that you can't.

Our culture has, made everybody afraid that if they love themselves, they will turn into a narcissist. This is the first thing people say to me. Well, I don't want to be conceited. I don't want to be selfish. Well, the simple fact that that's in your vocabulary at all, you won't be. Don't worry. No self-respecting real live narcissist would ever say.

I don't want to be selfish. So the simple fact that you don't want to be a selfish asshole will be the thing that forever keeps you. You couldn't even touch it if you tried. A few drops of self-love you will not become egomaniacal.

But there's the extremes.

And you know what every kid wants for their parent.

I just want my parents to be happy. Every kid, what do you want for your parents? I just want them to be loving. I want them

Sol (36:17)
Why can't they get along?

You hear that a lot.

Erika Wright (36:19)
Yeah. I just want them to be loving. Just want them to be happy.

Yeah, it's your job. You are all your own fault. It's the good news and the bad news. It's the powerful news. Well then I can do something about myself. You can't do shit about your kids. Good luck. I can't. I can sometimes get them to eat, but you can do everything about yourself. You can't do anything about your co-parent, but you can do everything about yourself.

Right? Maybe a little scary, because then you can't just walk around talking about how everything sucks anymore, because that would also be your own fault. It's like, what am going to do about me?

Sol (36:42)
Yeah, that's empowering.

Erika Wright (36:52)
If my co-parent is unmanageable and unagreeable and unreasonable, well maybe that's a sign for me to become the most reasonable, most agreeable, most teachable person.

Sol (37:03)
Before we end, I'm wondering if there's anything else that you would like that we haven't covered.

Erika Wright (37:08)
Being yourself is the most loving and powerful thing you can do.

It's what your kids want from you. It's what your kids see. It's what the world needs. It's what you need from yourself. If anyone was ever looking for a sign where you can have permission to fully be who you are, accept yourself exactly as you are and love yourself, here it is.

Sol (37:27)
And in many ways you could see the journey of going through divorce and separation is a way to come into yourself.

Erika Wright (37:35)
It sure is. anytime anyone comes to see me and they're like, I'm getting divorced, the first thing I say is congratulations. Wow, that's a big ceremony, getting married and getting divorced. That's a very, very powerful healing tool. And you you can accept that.

hard feelings at all. But it will definitely make you more of who you really are if you let it.

Sol (37:57)
I love How can listeners connect with you and learn more about your work and what resources you offer.

Erika Wright (38:03)
Yeah, so everything's on my website, which is www.erikaright.org. So that's E-R-I-K-A-W-R-I-G-H-T.org. My podcast is on there, all my social media all that's on there. I run drop-in codependency groups, which is a really good way to come and see what group work is like. That's like every six weeks. And then I do six month long.

codependency group intensives where if you are really ready to completely change your thoughts and ideas and beliefs and experiences around codependency, that's a really good way to do it. And then I am also offering a facilitator training where I teach therapists and coaches and leaders how to teach other people

how to not be codependent,

because they don't cover that in school, which is crazy. Yeah, so there's lots of different ways and I'm on Instagram and all that stuff.

Sol (39:01)
Thank you so much for being with us today, Erika. I've learned a lot.

Erika Wright (39:04)
Thanks, you're so great. It's an honor to be here and thanks for offering everything that you do to this particular group of people. I'm sure it's very helpful. Yeah, beautiful. Bless it up.

Sol (39:17)
Thank you, Erika.

Sol (39:20)
Thanks for joining us on the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. To support our show, subscribe or leave a rating. Links for all books and resources mentioned on appear in our show notes or on CoparentingBeyondConflict.com. See you next time.

Sol (39:38)
The commentary and opinions available on this podcast are for informational and entertainment purposes only, and not for the purpose of providing legal or psychological advice. You should contact a licensed attorney, coach, or therapist in your state to obtain advice with respect to any particular issue or problem.