Sol (00:01)
Anne Wintemute is the co-founder and CEO of Aimee Says, an AI companion designed to support victims and survivors o f abuse. Anne is a passionate advocate for survivors' rights and systems that hold perpetrators Today, we'll discuss the challenges facing co-parents in high-conflict situations.

dive in.

Sol (00:21)
Hi, Anne, welcome to the program. Thanks for joining us today.

Anne Wintemute (00:24)
Thank so much, Sol. It's great to see you. I'm happy to be here.

Sol (00:26)
How did you get here? How did you come to serve people in the way that you do?

Anne Wintemute (00:31)
Yes, absolutely. Prior to our app creation, my background was all in working with women who were experiencing post-separation abuse. They thought that ending a relationship would make everything better. That's certainly what people told Unfortunately, that's often not the case. So I worked with them throughout the custody and litigation process and post-decree co-parenting.

Learned so much about the challenges and opportunities that these folks face.

Sol (00:57)
You had mentioned about how you were supporting women where they were going through divorce and it became something they didn't expect. What is this experience of facing divorce and then suddenly your world shifts and changes?

Anne Wintemute (01:10)
I work with women who experienced abusive relationships and across the context, that's someone who's maybe a covert narcissist and are just deeply manipulative, but they certainly pass, right? They're employed, they have lots of friends, all the way up through people whose partners are going to likely spend time as an adjudicated abuser in prison.

Sometimes folks have a good awareness that the separation to process is going to be really complex and tricky and that those abusive tactics are really going to magnify. And sometimes people really don't. I think as a culture, we continue to place blame on victims of abuse by saying, well, if you end the relationship, that's the thing that you can do to end the abuse.

Unfortunately, it's much more likely that ending a relationship will actually escalate the abuse, make things worse, really kind of tear at the sense of control that the abuser has. So, for my clients that would look anywhere like just a real upheaval, being smeared socially, having all sorts of lies spread, sudden interest from the abusive parent in getting sole custody of the children, utilizing the legal system, draining them financially.

And usually it's someone's first divorce, first separation in that context. So the things really can be surprising and really knock you off balance. It's really challenging time to navigate.

Sol (02:25)
For a listener that might be tuning in and maybe they're in an abusive relationship, they're waking up to narcissism, they're thinking about getting out, what advice would you give to them anticipating that this might happen to them?

Anne Wintemute (02:38)
That's a really good question. One of the things that I worry about when people talk about their experiences with post separation abuse is it'll actually discourage people from leaving unhealthy, dangerous, toxic relationships. And, you know, I can't lie. While you're still in the relationship, you might think that relationship is the hardest thing you've ever done. And after separation, you might revise that statement and say, no.

I'm divorcing that person trying to keep my sanity is the hardest thing that I've ever done. So not going into it naively. If you have an opportunity to build your army beforehand, absolutely, please who your support people are, know who you're going to be able to lean on, read the books if it's safe for you to do that, listen to the podcasts, there are strategies. If you don't learn them too late,

you can really shape the outcome of that experience and get through it with as few scars, as little PTSD as possible.

Sol (03:33)
Many victims of abuse end up feeling very isolated and you talked about building a team. What are some things that

someone could do to feel less alone in this process?

Anne Wintemute (03:43)
Your team can be professionals and companionship. That might be working with a mental health professional, you can see that person once a week, maybe. An attorney is going to be able to help represent your legal needs. Many people in this position actually represent themselves. But that companionship piece that you just talked about is so important. Not feeling isolated

one of the most critical components to being able to endure really challenging separation. Isolation is the number one mental health killer, I should say, during a separation. You feel crazy, you feel misunderstood, feel tricked. The system is duplicitous. It was supposed to serve you. It doesn't. Often, the legal system serves the more adversarial parents.

So yes, build those teams. And I know we'll get to it later, Sol, but this is all the things that we're talking about now are why I developed the app.

Sol (04:35)
That's great. Before we get into that, I want to ask you a little bit more about these relationships. I know a lot of co- parents who have felt like they've lost friends, they've lost family members through this. How does one seek support in this situation?

Anne Wintemute (04:51)
you will lose friends. You will learn who was by your side all along, and you will have to endure kind of a 'let them' attitude. People will still talk to your ex in a way that feels like a huge boundary violation. It's difficult to figure out who your support system really, really is.

There are people that you can put in place, right? Like, "this is gonna be really hard. I'm gonna need a lot of validation. Will you commit to just helping validate my experience so that I'm not seeking it in the wrong places or I'm not trying to fight fire with fire out in my divorce or in my co-parenting relationship?" Find someone who can make a commitment to providing that validation, to helping you see the responses that you need to have when you really wanna shake the whole tree and burn the thing down.

Those are the kinds of anti-isolation measures that are going to keep you most functional. The relationships that aren't going to help are the inflammatory ones. You don't actually want someone to go and crusade against your ex, to fight valiantly in your honor. You cannot fight fire with fire. I tell folks this all the time. You have to starve the fire, rob it of the oxygen.

I see people say, "I want a bulldog attorney, one that's going to rip him apart!" Well, you just lost all of your money and you did not arrive at a better outcome. You got to starve the beast. So you're thinking about that in terms of your companionship is important.

Sol (06:12)
Yeah, I'm also wondering for people that are in the lives of these co-parents that are going through this, I know there's a lot of confusion oftentimes, like why can't they just get along? What's going on? Do have any advice for someone, maybe a family or a friend of a co-parent who's struggling with coercive control or emotional abuse?

Anne Wintemute (06:32)
This is another really tough space. Those people have been by your side for everything. Maybe they cared for you after you had a child. who've really been by your side, if they have no experience with these kind of insidious, almost invisible, I gotta fight and say they're not invisible, you can see them, but other people, they can be invisible. They are inadvertently invalidating.

Why are you arguing with him about this? Just let him do the thing, right? Or, it takes two to tango. It is so, so, so painful to hear that. But if you can find a spot in your heart to say they just, never experienced it. I'm really happy for them that they've never been in these shoes. And then find somebody who has. never gonna feel safe, supported, validated around someone who doesn't have

at least enough empathy to believe you, even if they haven't had their own experience, or someone who's been through it themselves. Those are often the best allies.

Sol (07:25)
I've also heard co-parents talk about this desire to not play the games of their abuser, to not badmouth the other co-parent, but in some ways that can also create some isolation where people don't understand what they're going through.

Anne Wintemute (07:41)
This is a short game, long game. The short game is the fire with fire, right? He said what about me? Or she said what about me? That's insane. But she did this thing or, she's lying because X, Y, Z. That is our natural response. I mean, this is an existential threat. Being smeared, having a smear campaign on around you having your motherhood or fatherhood

threatened, these are existential threats and they are going to bring out in you a, fight response. Unfortunately you guys just start to sound like each other if that happens. If someone comes up to you and says, so did you hear that your ex was saying this about you, if you can find it in yourself to make a little chuckle okay. Well, I guess that's what's going around today. Thanks for letting me know. You know, anyways, are you guys able to come over for a playdate next Friday?

When you have the solid grounds to be able to respond in that way, that's the long game because the lies about you cannot live in that If someone knows you, in which case that's the only interest you have in a relationship with them anyways, if it's your ex's family members, I'm sorry, you lost them. They're gonna ally with their family member. You're gonna have to let them.

But that other parent at your kid's school or the secretary at your kid's school or friends you guys have had along the way, your abuser's lies cannot live in that kind of healthful truth. And then go to somebody else and vent about it.

Sol (09:05)
I like that. What are your thoughts on communication strategy, like parallel parenting in situations like this?

Anne Wintemute (09:12)
Yes, I have lots of thoughts about this. Really after the two people are no longer living in the same home and they have to come up with new to communicate, but then especially at post-decree and for the next however many years, communication is now the number one contact point. It's the most critical contact point. It's how any decisions are made and it is what is going to represent you

if you end up having to relitigate your case or there's concerns around child safety or decision-making, parenting time, et cetera. My number one is not fighting fire with fire, resist to the urge to say, you're doing this right now, or that's a lie. Only correct lies that are around your child's safety or are critical to decision-making or parenting time issues. And then...

radical acceptance of knowing that there is nothing that you can say or do that will change the behavior of your ex, that you only have control over a small amount of the communication world and sticking with it. So to me, that's what the parallel parenting is. You do you, I do me. If you say something about me that really could potentially jeopardize my decision-making authority or my parenting time,

I will politely address that, which sometimes looks like we're not in agreement or, I'm having a hard time your input because of the negative remarks about me. Can you please restate that? Those are kind of subtle, not fighting fire with fire ways to communicate more effectively with someone who frankly is a toad.

Sol (10:43)
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get 10 % off with code Beyond10. Link in the show notes.

Sol AI (11:05)
And now, back to the show.

Sol (11:07)
would love to switch gears for a moment. I know you're a big advocate for how AI can help people in these You mentioned about your app. I'd love for you to talk a bit about your philosophy around AI and how that might improve co-parenting.

Anne Wintemute (11:23)
All this work that I did with these people, so helpful to them, I become like close best friends with all of my clients. And I'm painfully aware of how inaccessible someone like, my service is. I don't just mean that financially, but like, they gotta make an appointment, right? Or check in and maybe I'm available.

Whereas now with the advent of generative AI, we are in a whole new territory where virtually anyone can have instant accessible trauma informed support, less time triggered, right? You can use AI to help detrigger you to make sure that the message that you're sending is gonna stand up well in court. It really runs the gamut where people now have instant.

access to semi professional and companionship type relationships.

Sol (12:12)
And can you tell us a little bit more about Aimee Says and how it works?

Anne Wintemute (12:16)
Yes, absolutely. back in January, a year ago, I and my, Steven is my co-creator, we set out to see how we could use AI to solve that isolation, that confusion, the invisibility and insidiousness of so many of these kinds of coercive and manipulative things and how

can we get people who have no experience with an abuser, right? Hopefully they haven't just had a series of abusive relationships and then certainly no experience with an abusive divorce. How can we get them up to speed as quickly as possible, have a variety of expertise right by their side at free or near free? And that's what we built with Aimee and that's what AI presents today, which is amazing.

Sol (13:04)
Someone who is suffering from what they might describe as a coercive controlling relationship, high conflict, how might they actually benefit from using your product?

Anne Wintemute (13:14)
Someone who either knows already or suspects, first they would just start a conversation. One of the things they're going to realize about Aimee is that she's trauma informed. She is going to be promoting your agency and your autonomy, helping you kind of dig and discover and come up with language for what you've experienced. And throughout that, gently supporting the next decision that you want to make.

So if you come and you say, I'm still in this relationship, but I'm really struggling, I can't leave, but I want to start reestablishing boundaries or doing whatever I can to protect myself. She can support you right there. It could be, I've just left, holy cow, the whole thing blew up. My lawyer's telling me this, he's saying this, help me make sense of it. And she can support you through that, all the way through a long co-parenting relationship.

Sol (14:01)
That's great. I'm wondering about your take on AI in general. I know a lot of co-parents turn to ChatGPT, get some support there. How does Aimee Says relate to just using a chatbot? What is the experience like? How is it different?

Anne Wintemute (14:18)
There are some really cool kind of conversation analysis tools out there on ChatGPT, and they get sent to us all the time and we test them. And one of the things that really stands out is a lot of them are the fire with fire.

If you were just using Chat GPT or AI to be like, see, I told you that conversation was manipulative or, this is what you're doing to me. You're doing X, Y, Z. You will not have leveraged the AI to its greatest effect. With Aimee, we have intentionally built her to play that long game. She is going to deescalate situations. When you ask her to draft a response for you, she's not going to point out all the ways in which he lies.

She's going to point them out to you because you need to know those, right? not to him. She's going to keep it really child focused. We also have a lot more privacy than ChatGPT. If you go and have a conversation with ChatGPT, your information is going to be used to train the model.

Our accounts all have multi-factor authentication and, nothing that you say to Aimee is visible by the Aimee staff or nothing that Aimee says back and our model and our AI partners models cannot be trained with your data. So those are some important ones, but I really think it's important to understand and appreciate that Aimee has been engineered towards

what we understand to create the greatest likelihood of long-term, and I'm air quote here for listeners, success across a variety of metrics. The length and extent of PTSD, the length and extent of a legal battle. The longer we're in that fight or flight stress response, the worse our long-term health prognosis, right? Aimee wants to help people be

as calm, confident, clear, and competent as possible. And we do not just leverage AI to be like, gotcha, you're such a jerk other person. And that's important.

Sol (16:11)
What I'm hearing through this too is that in some ways with Chat GPT, I might not even know the questions that I need to ask, but your product is hyper-focused on these situations, it can pull you into questions that you may not even know to ask about.

Anne Wintemute (16:27)
It's gonna get a sense of where you're at and offer, would this resonate or do you think something like this sounds like it's of interest or safe enough for you to try and really kind of expand some of the ideas that you might not have automatically had. One of the things that happens when people are triggered is they become very myopic and they're thinking, they chew on, they perseverate about a small number of details. It's very normal.

It's a number one way that I can tell if somebody is triggered in that moment is how long they chew on a specific detail. But what happens is it makes it impossible to see the alternatives, right? And, makes it much more challenging. If you can't see the alternatives, it's harder to kind of end that chew that you're in. And by Aimee laying out this is what I'm hearing and laying out a handful of different ideas. She helps break up that thinking in a way that ends that trigger faster.

Sol (17:16)
Now, Switching gears to this larger context of the soup that we're all in, I wonder if you could talk to us a bit about coercive control and existing systems like the family court system, do they recognize coercive control? What's going on there?

Anne Wintemute (17:33)
No, and a lot is being done by people. You know, it's usually the marginalized that have to create the uproar in order to be heard. People who haven't experienced it are not out there championing, unfortunately. But there's an incredible groundswell of grassroots folks who are really trying to help systems, because that's what we're talking about now, systems, help systems.

Learn to recognize a power and control dynamic and then figure out how to respond. We are not even in a recognition phase. Unfortunately, there are a variety of biases and preconceived notions and myths. The way that the legal system is structured in its adversarial nature that really advantage the abuse.

Another one of the traumas is that many people who are, if not most, I don't know the stats, that's why I'm vague here, people who are victimized by power and control dynamics with their partner are very justice oriented, right? It's part of why they're manipulatable because someone says, well, that's not fair, or well, it really upsets me when you do X, Y, Z and gosh, well, I certainly don't wanna hurt or upset, I don't wanna be unfair. And so they give and they give and they give.

And then, you get into a justice system and the victim thinks, well, I paid my taxes, right? I only go seven miles an hour over the speed limit. I'm a very conscientious person. My child's only been tardy twice. That means I have paid into the social contract and the system will be there to support me. So when I walk up and I say, your honor, these are all the things that this person is doing. And I'm scared. I'm scared for my children. We really believe the system will be there.

Why wouldn't it be, right? We have paid all of our debts. And so finding out, yes, and this person is a professional, you know, we, some folks go into these systems and are really side slapped. So that's important. One of the reasons it's so important to strategize beforehand, be prepared for that smear campaign, try to keep as much focus on the kids as possible, pattern the issues versus talk about incidents. There's a whole bunch of stuff, but.

Sol (19:17)
These are professionals.

Anne Wintemute (19:39)
That's kind of the backdrop and framework in which that bias continues. And then you get in there and the abuser says, well, these things just aren't true. This person is just trying to get between me and my kids and all I wanna do is love on my children. And you lost already.

Sol (19:55)
I'm a big optimist when it comes to technology. And we talked a bit about AI. I hear that you're also an optimist in this area. Where do you see technology going in terms of supporting this population?

Anne Wintemute (20:08)
Mm, yeah, I was very recently an AI skeptic. Until Aimee. My dream state about where these things are going, are a total agentic model that has all of the different agencies that we need, right? Whether it's, this is educational support, it's actually a really high population of like neurodiverse children and these separating families that makes a whole new layer of challenge.

Therapeutic support, legal support. And, right now, Aimee's all about legal empowerment. She's going to help you understand your options, where to file or find the forms, how to understand what's being asked. But she's not going to write all your motions for you. How long do you think we are away, Sol, from people's motions being written by AI or AI being accepted to the bar?

Sol (20:48)
You know, that's an interesting question. I personally think, and this is a controversial take, I think that we're marching towards a world where the whole court system can get replaced. That the decisions can be made between two parties with AI sitting in the middle. And I think that that's where potentially true justice comes, because you're not reliant on

the fallible human emotional mental model.

Anne Wintemute (21:13)
Right, and all the bias. You could train it out of the system. I mean, it takes 20 to 40 years for research to come out and then that research to be fully implemented by the people who are making the decisions where that's an education and in law, in the practice of medicine. The idea that we nearly overnight, upgrade the systems to understand

all of the best available research and information and to apply it, that would be amazing. We'd have completely different systems.

Sol (21:41)
A part of me believes that it's going to just go in stages where I'm imagining right now that a lot of family court judges are actually using ChatGPT to help write some things, make their lives easier. Eventually, the systems will learn, they'll adapt, and it will just be about efficiency. Why have a six-month-long trial when you can use Chat to come up with, the answer?

Anne Wintemute (22:04)
Yeah, and they'll have competing models. They'll be like, this models A, B, and C all arrived at a guilty verdict. I can totally see some supermodel ideas. By the way, listeners, supermodel, if you don't know AI, it's not Tyra Banks. It's putting a variety of models together and aggregating the data to get the best response.

Sol (22:09)
you

I love it. It's like a it's a panel of judges.

Anne Wintemute (22:27)
Yes.

There's a lot of ego in the world, generally, but certainly in this space as well. And it will be interesting to see how long those egos uphold the system as it is. There will probably be a last man standing, so to speak.

Because I don't think that the folks who see themselves as the reason that the systems work are going to want to step aside for AI.

Sol (22:52)
Totally, that makes sense. It's also sorely needed too. In California, we have a fairly recent law that establishes some coercive control, domestic abuse regulations for family law. And yet, in order to get that law passed, they needed to really scale back the amount of training the judges would have to sign up for.

And that was the judge's advocacy group making them push that down. And that just makes me really sad, right? Because these are extremely painful situations that people go through and they need more training to understand.

Anne Wintemute (23:29)
I try to be empathic. In all things empathic, and I put myself in the judge's shoes, and I imagine myself having had long-standing biases around abuse and very much being a, takes two to tango kind of a judge. And, the empathic side of me says, it's kind of like professional or psychological suicide to have to come to the realization

that your biases may have gotten people literally killed. Unfortunately, it is a far too common outcome of custody litigation for the children or exes to actually be murdered based off of decisions that are being made in the courtroom. It would be really, really challenging to lean into that kind existential risk to your entire career.

I want to honor that and understand that for judicial officers and plead with them to do it anyways.

Sol (24:21)
Mm-hmm. I like that. What's next for Aimee Says? Where are things headed?

Anne Wintemute (24:25)
Well, Steven and I just did our annual planning for '25. Generative AI was kind of born in the written word space, and lots of new technologies are coming out. Certainly image based, that last year has been really incredible to watch it turn, be a picture that was like really pretty awkward.

Now to these hyper realistic short videos that people can make and voice based. So what can we do with Aimee's voice? What does she sound like? Can Aimee just converse with people? You're on your way to your co-parenting counseling or to see your kids therapist and you're anxious and concerned and you need to immediately have access to a conversation that's going to get you grounded, help you remember what you're doing

without ever having to type anything. We're going to be working in some new dimensions with Aimee over this year.

Sol (25:08)
I know a lot of people when we talk about AI get fearful about the jobs, right? I'm curious how you see Aimee Says, as compared to a co-parent hiring a co-parent coach.

Anne Wintemute (25:23)
Over this past year, none of my clients left me for Aimee, even though I was the person who made Aimee. People who have access to a human will continue to have access to a human. AI isn't replacing them. But if we've learned anything over this past year, and I think, nearly half a million messages were submitted to Aimee in her first year.

Which in January was like 10 because nobody knew that she existed. This incredible kind of parabolic growth in Aimee. All of that did not pull conversations or time away from people utilizing professionals. It was just entirely unmet need. It always existed, it was never addressed. And here we've created this space where

Sol (26:01)
Totally.

Anne Wintemute (26:07)
where those needs can be addressed. So I didn't lose my job. I was a divorce coach, I was consulting. I didn't lose my job. I don't think that in this kind of people to people work, other people are gonna lose their job. But I would love to see if they spent their time doing more of the kind of higher level strategic work and less of the things that can be done

often much better and certainly much faster by AI.

Sol (26:34)
What I'm hearing through that is that it's allowing us all to level up. Bigger and better things.

Anne Wintemute (26:37)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah, and have instant near expertise in a broad range of things. It's calling in the cavalry for sure.

Sol (26:46)
Well, thanks and thanks so much for being here with me. Do you have any last parting words for our listeners?

Anne Wintemute (26:52)
Go out there folks, I radically accept the things that you cannot change. Do not fight fire with fire. And thank you all for listening.

Sol (27:00)
And if someone wanted to connect with you about Aimee Says or your coaching work, how can they do so?

Anne Wintemute (27:05)
You can find us at AimeeSays.com I'm not taking coaching clients anymore because I'm fully on board with Aimee. But there are variety of ways to reach out there. And I am the person that you will get in touch with through any of the contact buttons.

Sol (27:17)
Great, thanks so much, Anne.

Sol (27:18)
Thanks for joining us on the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. To support our show, subscribe or leave a rating. Links for all books and resources mentioned on appear in our show notes or on CoparentingBeyondConflict.com. See you next time.

Sol (27:36)
The commentary and opinions available on this podcast are for informational and entertainment purposes only, and not for the purpose of providing legal or psychological advice. You should contact a licensed attorney, coach, or therapist in your state to obtain advice with respect to any particular issue or problem.