Sol (00:01)
Welcome back to Co-Parenting Beyond Conflict. I'm your host, Sol. Today we're taking a deep dive into a subject that is both painful and essential to understand, narcissism. In a previous episode, we had the incredible Dr. Ramani on the show, and today I'm thrilled to continue this conversation with another expert in the field,

Wendy Behary. Wendy brings a refreshing and hopeful take on the topic of narcissism. With over 30 years of experience, she's the founder of the Cognitive Therapy Center and Schema Therapy Institutes. She specializes in treating narcissists and those who have to navigate relationships with them, including co-parents. She's also the author of the international bestseller, Disarming the Narcissist.

Now in its third edition and recognized by Oprah Daily as one of the top books on the subject.

I truly enjoyed this conversation with Wendy. She offers invaluable insights on how to set boundaries, quiet that inner critic, and tools to protect yourself and your children. If you've ever felt powerless in the face of a narcissistic co-parent, this episode is for you. Let's dive in.

Sol (00:58)
Hi, Wendy, welcome to the program. Thanks for being here today.

Wendy Behary (01:01)
Hi, Sol. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be with you.

Sol (01:04)
It's my Before we begin, I'd love to hear more about your story. How did you end up getting to where you are today, supporting people in the way that you do?

Wendy Behary (01:13)
How did I become a masochist who works with narcissistic people is usually the way the question gets asked. You know, it was not something I signed up for or chose to do, but it was an interesting stumbling upon this by way of feeling very triggered in the presence of someone with narcissistic traits. I found myself just making a lot of mistakes

and resorting to some old survival skills, and realizing that this is interesting. There's this type of person that I meet in treatment that really reduces me to feeling like I'm five years old, and feeling like I have to give in, give up, apologize, subjugate myself. So it was at a time when I was working closely with the developing team of Schema Therapy, Jeffrey Young, the founder of Schema Therapy, a model that I practice.

We were working in the development of this model with various personality types. I would bring my observations, my frustrations, my fascination about all of this with narcissistic types. And I kind of became assigned the role of, okay, you're going to work heavily on how we modify our approach to be more effective with the narcissistic people out there.

And that expanded and grew over time, turning into a book that I've written three editions of also, beginning to help partners and couples who are dealing with this issue as parents in their relationships and as individuals. I know it's a hot topic out there right now. I think there's a lot of mythology in addition to that, but it's a really important topic because people are wounded, both the people who are affected

by narcissism and the narcissistic individual themselves. These are impaired people. And so it's been a very rewarding journey, my career, in getting to a place where I can feel like I can make a difference in helping someone who wants to be helped, who has narcissistic issues, or is at least willing to indulge the process, and working with those who are struggling to attempt to co-parent when they're dealing with a narcissistic other.

Helping children who have narcissistic parents. So it's been very rewarding getting to this stage. I've been doing this for decades now.

Sol (03:22)
Thank you for your work. You mentioned about narcissists being impaired people, that piqued my curiosity. I would like to understand more about your perspective on what narcissism is and maybe help us look at it from a different perspective.

Wendy Behary (03:37)
Yeah, sure. Right now, if you go to the internet, you're basically a narcissist if you talk about yourself for three minutes. Everyone's a narcissist now. But of course, they're not. So it's one of the myths that becomes very distressing, and we're also at times not differentiating narcissism from those who may be more psychopathic or have other issues.

I've worked mostly with narcissistic men, I have treated some narcissistic women too, but mostly men. I think it starts with a childhood where someone comes into the world with a certain biological makeup, a certain temperament, They come into the world like every other child with some very important emotional needs and meets an environment that can't adequately meet those needs.

And with narcissists, what we often see in the profile is a child who may bring more sensitivity, more impulsivity, perhaps a lower capacity for frustration tolerance and is meeting an environment that doesn't set limits so well, that doesn't necessarily offer adequate unconditional love, that there's a lot of weight on performance and achievement. It's that chosen child, that special child, that bright selected child

who becomes a surrogate at times for parents who are living vicariously through this child. And this is not to demonize anybody's parents. This is not to bad mouth the parent. Parenting is hard. A lot of parents want the best for their kids, but they may be missing a link, when it comes to the importance of balancing connection with autonomy and performance.

you have someone who's having to forfeit that childhood experience. In other words, you have the confusing message of you are my precious, perfect prince combined with that's not good enough, try harder, you're not doing enough. And it becomes a sort of internal demanding, sometimes excruciating, shame inducing critic that lives in the mind of this child who's doing their best to survive and thrive in an environment that is

expecting a lot, at a very early stage of life. And It's not surprising that they often become leaders, they often become successful out there in the world, not all of them, but many do. But it's not surprising because it's very weighted on performance and not so weighted on interpersonal effectiveness, on intimacy, on empathy, on emotional connection. that's why you see with narcissism, low empathy,

high entitlement to have what they want when they want it. more explosiveness in some cases, exploitation, coerciveness, all of those things that happen because of that supreme need to be at the top of the rank, to have absolute control, to have absolute autonomy. There's so much fear of the big shame monster that lives at the core, and they don't know that. They're running on automatic pilot.

Sol (06:14)
Having someone in your life that you're experiencing as narcissistic can be extremely painful. And when you said, "the narcissists that come into my office," I thought, wow, there's hope. Because I thought that none of these people would go and seek help. But I've also heard the perspective, abandon all hope.

So what is your perspective on narcissism? Can it be worked on? How did these clients end up coming to you?

Wendy Behary (06:39)
That's a really good question. And it's an important question because again, out there on the internet, what you're going to find is run for your life. There's no hope. They're hopeless. They can't be changed. They'll never change. It's not all wrong. It's not completely wrong. Most won't go to therapy. The ones who do are usually coming in begrudgingly. I always say to that, happy day. You have someone coming in who really doesn't want to be there, doesn't think they

should be there, but They're coming because the stakes are high. the consequences are high if they don't. So We call that leverage. So Somebody had enough leverage to be able to say, "if you don't get help, we're done." If you don't get help, I'm not talking to you anymore. Might be adult children... might be an associate. It might be a boss. They may be getting sent to therapy due to insubordination. They may be getting sent to therapy through the legal system for drinking and driving because, they

might feel like I can drink and drive. I have superior genes. I can tolerate my alcohol. So they come in often because there's been a mandate. They don't want to be there. There are some, some situations where They may come in voluntarily simply because the loneliness has become excruciating. They have been rejected or left. They are experiencing a panic attack for the first time, or they're feeling depressed for the first time. They're not coming for the long sit.

They're coming for the quick fix. So part of the reason it doesn't work, most of the time is because the leverage isn't high enough to sustain the treatment. The therapist isn't sturdy enough to spot and to confront what needs to be confronted with a narcissist. The therapist is overwhelmed and intimidated or they're buying into the charm and the narrative that the narcissist is producing.

They're not able to see it. And the model that they may be using is too talky and not emotional enough. It must go deep. It's long-term therapy. It's a sturdy therapist. I use empathic confrontation. There's a lot of confrontation involved. in making a difference. The fail rate is high because of all the reasons I just named, but it's not impossible.

It takes a lot of work, takes a lot of energy. And Ultimately, The therapist has to be able to really transform that outside leverage into a leverage that happens in the therapy relationship where they want to sit with you because they can see that you've got their number and you're not shaming them. You're not endorsing bad behaviors, but you are beginning to help puzzle piece together

how they became the way they are. Like how A led to B led to C, et cetera. The most important aspect in the treatment is Helping them to really develop a deep empathic understanding of their own vulnerable self. before they can begin to even start to step into the skin of another.

Sol (09:27)
Well, What I'm hearing in all that is as a therapist, it takes, it sounds like years of experience and training and a certain disposition to be able to navigate that type of relationship towards healing. I'm thinking now of a co-parent who has none of that experience and is finding themselves really challenged by being in relationship with someone they think is a narcissistic co-parent.

Wendy Behary (09:46)
Yes.

Sol (09:51)
What are some ways that they can cope with that situation and thrive under those circumstances?

Wendy Behary (09:58)
A lot of my time is spent in consultation with people like that that you've just described, individuals who are coming up against this, they're in the throes of trying to navigate a narcissistic other while they're raising their children, protecting their children. That's why a lot of people don't leave is because, not that the co-parenting within the same household is so easy, but

leaving can feel very scary. Not being able to supervise and do the quick repair work that might need to be done with the kids on the spot. So yeah, it's hard. My message to partners who are co-parenting with a narcissist is always learn everything you can about narcissism. It may sound unfair. It may sound like why do I have to put all my energy into that? But

the more you understand this, the more you emancipate yourself from any self doubt and self blame. Narcissists are so good at getting partners to doubt themselves, to blame themselves, to doubt their own reality. It becomes a tactic for control. It's a tactic for preserving their own ego. It's not, as malevolent as it sounds. You know, that would be a

perhaps psychopathy, a different conversation we might be having. with narcissists, it's not so much that they really wanna hurt you. They will hurt you for sure, but they want to protect their own ego. So it's more in the service of protecting and preserving their own face, that facade that the world sees, preserving their applause and adulation. And they've usually done a really good number on a partner before it comes to a conclusion.

And you can feel like you just did a 360 and you don't know what's what, the rug got pulled out from under you. And now you start reading about this thing called narcissism and it's beginning to feel very resonant in your bones. So I say, learn everything you can, ask questions, understand. There's a lot of unlearning that has to happen where you spent time

perhaps muting your own voice, silencing yourself, subjugating yourself in the face of a narcissist. That has to come to a halt so that you can revive your own inner advocate, be a good advocate, not only for your children, but for yourself, in the face of dealing with a narcissistic person. So it starts with understanding it, liberating yourself,

trying to get that nice sturdy spine in place. You're not gonna be the therapist for sure, but you still can be a person who has a voice, who has a message, and who needs to be thoughtful about how you're going to convey that message, craft that language, so the narcissist might actually hear you.

It's easy to just get angry or just shut down, right? That's easy, or flight. It's harder to stop, be thoughtful, create, craft an assertive message that takes into account that listener on the other side, that may ultimately sink in to the deeper layers so that you can make some difference.

And even if you make no difference when it comes to how you convey that message to the narcissist, you are making a difference here, right? You are hearing yourself, perhaps for the first time in years or ever, being a stand for your own truth, for what matters, which goes a long way as a role model for your children, as a way of being able to perhaps bring adjunctive supports into place when necessary, like the legal system in some cases.

Sol (13:14)
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get 10 % off with code Beyond10. Link in the show notes.

Sol AI (13:36)
And now, back to the show.

Sol (13:38)
Yeah, you made a lot of really good points and one of them is that co-parents don't just start on Day One as co-parents. They've experienced a type of relationship that they have now clawed their way out of and now they're co-parenting.

It's such a challenging situation to wake up to this reality of, wow, so in this relationship, I was experiencing these challenges. I was feeling invalidated. I hear that a lot from co-parents that, that invalidation of reality is so painful, so confusing.

In co-parenting, oftentimes with a narcissist, there's a challenge with boundaries. A narcissist co-parent will often push back, will ignore or twist. How do we set boundaries with that type of antagonistic co-parent?

Wendy Behary (14:26)
There's a good one, right? Maybe you could give me an example of even or even a phrase that might be a common phrase that comes from the narcissistic co-parent when they're pushing back on something.

Sol (14:38)
Yeah, the first one I can think of is pushing boundaries around... Let's say you're in a situation where as a co-parent, you want to create some physical distance, handoffs and exchanges fine, but you don't want to do birthday parties together. That boundary, that desire of yours keeps on getting prodded and poked and "let me in, let's do this together." And, or they show up unannounced to events or.

Wendy Behary (14:48)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, Great examples. Those are great examples. I co-lead a community, an online support community with Susan Stiffelman. She's a brilliant parenting expert. I talk the narcissism side. She talks the parenting side. We do a little mix and mingle, but it's called Co-parenting with a Narcissist. And we get loads of examples like the ones you just described where there's

Sol (15:03)
Right?

Wendy Behary (15:25)
either just completely ignoring the agreements that were put in place or making up new ones, creating their own because that's what narcissists do at my convenience. I do what works for me and makes it so incredibly hard.

So what do you do? We talk a lot about empathic confrontation strategies. They are not limited to the treatment room. This is something that anyone can learn. I have lot of examples in my book and in the chapter I wrote on co-parenting with the narcissist where a co-parent can say to the narcissist things like, "I know that you know this, right? I know you already know this because you you're a smart guy. You're a really bright guy.

And the stability for the kids, making sure they have some sort of consistency and stability and that they're not made to feel uncomfortable and things suddenly change and shift, even though, yes, life will change sometimes. So I know you know that, but I just want to remind you, we need to stay on the same page here, for the sake of the kids.

And I know you want that as much as I do, but let's just be really clear about how it's going to work on Saturday." Right. So it might be like that. What I did was... I understand narcissism, right? That's why I say learn everything you can about the makeup and the profile of a narcissist, hypersensitive to criticism, always ready to feel like they're being called the bad guy, always prepared to feel like you're trying to control them and tell them what to do. So if you know all that, you start with:

"You're a good guy. You're not a bad person." P.S. You've done a lot of really bad things to me, but you don't say that. "You're a really good guy. I know you care about the kids." You're giving them benefit of the doubt. That's a form of empathy, right? You give somebody the benefit of the doubt because you have some understanding of how their pushback is so quick. Their defense tactics are so harsh. They're so sensitive to what you're saying.

Another strategy would even just be to state your intention. I call it the narrator strategy. You just say, "right now I'm feeling a little bit uncomfortable about this. I don't want you to think in any way that this is meant to be a criticism or by no means am I trying to control you. Because I know that we both want good for our children. We want that. And sometimes that's hard to come by. Parenting is really hard, isn't it? Let's be clear about Saturday and the plan that we're putting in place here."

So it can even go like that. Just state your intention. That's transparent intention. And you can do that just by narrating the moment. One more thing. This is really hard to do live with a narcissist. They interrupt, they scoff, they roll their eyes. They are, "God, know, what are you talking like a therapist now?" So you can get things like that that become so hard to maintain that sturdy spine, that calm, steady composure. You just want to scream.

So take your phone, find your little recording app, record your voice and send it as a text message. It's better than writing it where they can assign a tone, they can assign a meaning. Record your voice and say what's so and guess what? You get to erase it and do it again if it doesn't exactly come out the way you wanted it to sound. I am a big believer in the audio message.

I just think it can be really powerful with narcissists. They do tend to listen because they're really curious. They may get halfway through and go, but they will go back and listen again. And even if they don't give you the benefit or the courtesy of a response, they probably heard you. You're not going to change them, but you may affect small changes, meaningful changes in some areas.

You will start setting a precedent that you can then refer to. And number one, you're changing what's going on in here. This inner advocate who doesn't have to be screaming to make a point, doesn't have to shut down and run away, can be present, can be steady, can be sure-footed. It's a very powerful way of being there.

Again, because the only other resource for protecting your kids when it becomes more serious, more dangerous is the law. And good luck with that. It doesn't always serve co-parents.

Sol (19:25)
Totally.

I love what you're talking about. My perspective is that These types of people in our lives, co-parents or not, they are teachers for us if we choose to accept the lesson, and we can grow. As a co-parent dealing with a challenging, maybe narcissistic,

partner, I can grow and work on my communication and become a better communicator for all the people in my life that may have these traits. Because let's face it, your ex is not your only person in your life that has some level narcissism.

Wendy Behary (19:49)
Yeah. Yeah.

Right, exactly. There are so many difficult, irritating people, challenging situations, interactions out there in the world that we encounter. We're built for ease and peace and our brains are sort of wired for that. We're pleasure seekers. We're not designed to walk into the fire. And it can feel like that when I say,

confrontation, oh no confrontation. It's part of our humanness to-- we're conditioned not to go in that direction. And yet it's such a powerful stance when you can use your voice in a way that isn't like, I'll show you, but it might be setting a limit. You might just say, "look, I know you're used to getting your way. I know you were taught from a long time ago that if you just,

do everything perfectly. You can have whatever you want without consequence. I know that's not your fault. That's what you've learned. And you can push people around all day long in your office because you're the guy in charge. So I know you're used to that, But That's not happening here." So there's the empathy. "I get it. I get you. But no."

And it's just limit setting. It's empathy with confrontation. And they may just turn around and slam the door, but good for me. Good for me.

Sol (21:08)
Can you tell us more about the inner critic work that you're suggesting that we do? How does that play out and how can that help us?

Wendy Behary (21:16)
Well, we all have one. We all have an inner critic. And that goes back to as early as, when we're very little and somebody says, no, no more, no more chocolate, no more spaghetti, no more play, time to go to sleep. So the interruption of pleasure can feel shaming, even with the most loving parents. There's just little elements of distress and shame and I'm doing something wrong.

If you're really lucky and you've had loving parents who know how to discipline in ways that don't assassinate your character, then you stand a chance at being able to have a mild inner critic who occasionally, if I drop the pen while I'm talking to Sol, It's not going to ruin my day. It's not going to change my mood. It might be a little just statement that...

"what's wrong with you." But I'm not taking myself that seriously. Unfortunately, lots of people have experienced discipline very differently with what's wrong with you, or what are you thinking or stop it or how many times do I have to. And although all parents can erupt at times because we're human, if there was never any repair resolution on that kind of discipline, child can develop a more moderate to severe internal

critic, one that's very shame inducing, one that's very demanding, not good enough, try harder, what's with you? You know, what are you stupid? What are you going to let her get away with that? What are you going to let him make a fool of you? It can be really hard to bypass the message of that inner critic. It's carrying with it so many of the traits that have been developed as a result of the unmet emotional needs.

In other words, if you've experienced a parent who goes cold on you when you don't perform well or you don't show up well, you know, they give you the cold shoulder. They're not necessarily abusing you in your face, but they're turning away. You could have an inner critic that says, go ahead, open your mouth, watch what happens. You're to get rejected again. Go ahead. Start, telling your partner what you need or what you want. Make a fool of yourself. You know what happens. You're going to be all by yourself. Is that what you want?" So

the inner critic can really drive the bus, as I like to say. It really can be the primary escort for this going silent, losing our sense of self, losing our rights, losing our ability to assert ourselves clearly, stand up for truth, and ultimately stand up for our children.

Sol (23:32)
Speaking of parenting styles, as a co-parent, one of the major challenges that I hear is that you feel powerless, especially if you feel like your co-parent won't listen to you and has a different type of parenting style, maybe is more harsh with the children, more demanding, more controlling. How do we support our kids in this environment?

Wendy Behary (23:45)
Yeah.

You know, we can't control everything. That's the thing. It's making that peace with the fact that we have limits on what we can absolutely control. Let's say the narcissist is really comfortable with the kids being on their iPads all day long, because then he or she gets to do whatever they want to do. They don't really have to engage the children or oversee the homework.

Or they're letting them eat a lot of sugar. You can certainly try some of the interventions that I've mentioned and tailor them accordingly, but courts aren't necessarily gonna pay a whole lot of attention to this. So wasting your time and money in the legal system because the iPads are open a lot more in this household than in your household.

I think that we have to make some peace with what feels comfortable and do our best under our roof to be able to provide for our children the best opportunity to be healthy, to be safe, to be strong, to be good humans, right? To be prepared to live in a world that does come with challenges without badmouthing the other parent, because that just sets up a really difficult burden and a dynamic

for children that they're then carrying with how to be in the presence of this parent who, by the way, they may also love. And so it's hard. That's why I like variations on how we can use empathic confrontation to try to make a difference. But sometimes we have to just kind of come to peace with the fact that I'll do my repair work. It's an extra burden for the co-parent who's dealing with the narcissistic other,

to be repairing some of the damage that's happening in the other household.

And it goes beyond parenting styles like I gave an example of iPads, having the devices open or eating too much junk food, but it can also be different styles of discipline. So the child in the other home is hearing things like, "you're such a baby, you're such a coward, what's with you? You're such a mama's boy." Might be hearing things like that. And again, we might say, well, that's, that's abusive, isn't it?

It's not typically going to be paid much attention to in the courts. So how do you reconcile that? Well, you reconcile that in your own home. Here's something if I might mention that comes up a lot with the members in our co-parenting community, which is the question of how do I help my child understand these incredible differences coming from one home to the next home? And how do I help my child when they're asking things about

Sol (25:52)
Right.

Wendy Behary (26:14)
"Why does dad behave like that? Why does he suddenly get so angry? Why does he call me names? Why does he call you names? Why does he do that? He can be so fun sometimes and then other times he just becomes like really scary and mean or he's just so cold and he goes in his room and he doesn't come out for a long time." And I think that we don't want to set up a situation where we are

saying, here's my opportunity to tell my kids the truth. But we can still tell them a truth, which is that all humans are, we're all very dimensional people. We're not monoliths. We're not just coming from one mode. And in Schema Therapy, we look at modes. We look at these different modes, these different states of mind, these different ways in which we cope and which we exist and the ways we show up. And even very young children

can understand when you say things like, "well, there's that part of your dad that's so much fun, you know, when you're with him on Sunday mornings and he's flipping the pancakes and he's telling funny stories and you're all sitting at the kitchen table and it's a lot of fun, that part of dad. But then there's another part of him at times that can become, when he feels upset or tired,

I think a little bit more uncomfortable because of the way he behaves as another part of him. But why does he do that? Well, we all have different parts of us that under certain conditions at certain times will show up differently. And it's, it's not okay, honey. And I know it's making you feel bad. Tell me about that." So really turn more to the child. "What is that like for you? What would you like to say to dad about that?" or mom, in case it might be mom. "What would you like to say?

about that, how it makes you feel?" "I don't want to say anything, it's too scary." "Well, maybe we can play it out here together and just practice what you would say if you could say something to what would feel good, right?" So we're teaching them a little bit about different parts. We're allowing them to still love a part of the parent that is joyful and good, but also recognizing that they have a right to be upset about this other part,

that it makes them very angry and it makes them very sad. It makes them feel very hurt and distressed. And then, lot of constant clarifications of truth about, "you're a really, really good soul. You're a good boy. And I'm very proud of you. And it's okay when you have a bad night and you need to cry because you're frightened because you're a human and all humans do that. There's nothing cowardly about that in you."

"But dad said--" "well, that's that part of your dad that doesn't always handle things so well when he's in that mode, right? That's that part of him that may get a little fuzzy and doesn't see things so clearly." So it's a way that we can speak to our children effectively without dismantling the entire relationship with the other parent.

Sol (28:52)
I hear in that too, empowering our children to make up their own minds and to learn how to navigate human life and the shades of grey that it presents.

Wendy Behary (28:59)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And even turn helping them to see their own different parts in action, Their own parts of themselves. We have had interesting, situations that have come up where the child is basically being what we say gas lit by the narcissist, "that didn't happen. It didn't happen like that." The child is thinking, "but it did. It really did"

and beginning to feel that they have to buy into the narcissistic parents' truths, that there's no escaping that.

a lot of empowering children to see that they'd have a truth and they have a right to that truth. And it might be very scary because there's consequences when they are with the narcissistic parent, but it's very safe here. to be yourself

and share yourself and tell your story.

Sol (29:47)
Yeah, the approach of having two homes allows children to have two different perspectives on love and parenting. My experience is that these sorts of behaviors are lineage problems. A lot of us that find ourselves waking up co-parenting with a narcissist oftentimes have

parents or grandparents that probably are narcissists as well. As children, we went through this ourselves, but maybe we didn't have the resources or the teachings to allow us to make better choices.

Wendy Behary (30:21)
That's right, the legacy of growing up with a narcissist in your life, so it becomes generational. One of the things I love doing in my work, when I'm working with a narcissistic client or co-parent, who I know from a partner, is having difficulty, or they're creating difficulties for their child in the way they're applying discipline.

And I love to bring to their attention, once I know the story, which usually is a story that well describes how they've evolved these narcissistic traits and to say to them, "your child is so lucky because in the home that they've lived in so far, it has felt safe enough to express their distress and their upset. I know it makes you uncomfortable, and it's one of those conditions that activates the little guy in you

who probably feels like, "I couldn't get away with that. That wasn't tolerated. that's a weakling." That's what you learned, isn't it? And yet you are so important to your child. You are probably one of the most important people on the planet. You are a role model. You are dad or you are mom. He looks up to you and he's learning from you. You have the power to break that legacy. You have the power

to stop what's been going on for generations and to help your child see that he can cry if he needs to, he can make a mistake because it's normal and human to make mistakes. And it doesn't mean it's the end of the world and it doesn't mean he's a weakling. It doesn't mean he's not gonna be successful out there in the world. You have the power to do that. You didn't have that opportunity. And I think there's a little rivalry going on between little you and your own child."

This has been such a powerful wake up to so many narcissistic people I have worked with. They look at me like I'm speaking a foreign language at first, but then, as we dive deeper into it, it makes a lot of sense to them that they can break the legacy. And the same is true for those who've grown up with narcissists and they've become more of the super self-sacrificing types, more subjugated types that, you you have a chance to break the spell that was not easily broken by your parents

and by what you saw as a child, by having a voice, by being an advocate, by becoming more assertive, by drawing a line in the sand, by saying no, by saying what's so. You could do that. And it will be hard.

Sol (32:36)
I really appreciate your energy of hope that you've been conveying to us in this interview. I feel like narcissism, this bully behavior, it's so ready to be healed on a global stage and we're seeing it play out everywhere. I love this message of there is healing, there is hope, and that we can get through this.

Wendy Behary (32:53)
Tough.

Sol (33:00)
It's really resonating with me.

Wendy Behary (33:02)
Thank you, that's great. I don't wanna give false hope to anyone. It is hard and it doesn't happen enough of the time. This change doesn't come easily, it doesn't come quickly, it doesn't come most of the time. And again, there is a real shortage of therapists who really are comfortable with this or willing to treat this problem.

Effective treatment approaches are really important and leverage is important. And so that's a lot that has to go into the pot to make it happen. But I'm still hopeful. In some cases, there is a chance but there is always always always a chance to make a difference within yourself. And that's really the message. Learn what you can liberate yourself from what has been told to you, pounded into you, maybe going back to when you were very little.

You can make that difference within yourself. And that means a lot in terms of how you be that one parent as my dear mentor, Dan Siegel, as many of you probably know, brilliant man, founder of interpersonal neurobiology would say, every child needs one good healthy parent who's doing a lot of hard work to steer the ship, but nonetheless.

Sol (34:05)
That's important work. Where can listeners learn more about your work and how to connect with you?

Wendy Behary (34:10)
My website is probably the best place to find lots of goodies and resources and support and coaching, et cetera. It's www.disarmingthenarcissist.com or you can just google Wendy Behary and you'll find my website there.

Sol (34:25)
Wendy, any parting words of advice or wisdom that you can share with our listeners.

Wendy Behary (34:29)
Be good to yourselves, be kind to yourselves, be patient with yourselves. Parenting is really hard and we're not gonna get it right right out of the gate. We're not gonna be perfect. We need to keep our little tool kit nearby, right? The little repair box because every now and then it's gonna be sitting down and rethinking and kind of recapturing something and that goes a long distance in helping our children and healing these little ruptures that will happen

time to time.

Sol (34:56)
Wendy, thank you for being on today.

Wendy Behary (34:58)
Well, thank you for having me, Sol. It's been a pleasure.

Sol (35:02)
Thanks for joining us on the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. To support our show, subscribe or leave a rating. Links for all books and resources mentioned on appear in our show notes or on CoparentingBeyondConflict.com. See you next time.

Sol (35:20)
The commentary and opinions available on this podcast are for informational and entertainment purposes only, and not for the purpose of providing legal or psychological advice. You should contact a licensed attorney, coach, or therapist in your state to obtain advice with respect to any particular issue or problem.