Sol (00:01)
Welcome to Co-Parenting Beyond Conflict. I'm your host, Sol.

Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Lisa Johnson and Chris Barry, the founders of Been There Got Out. Lisa and Chris are high conflict divorce strategists who have walked the brutal road of family court and now dedicate their lives to helping others navigate it smarter, faster, and with less cost. Lisa is a powerhouse pro se litigant whose case was published as case law and Chris brings his background in financial planning and high conflict divorce coaching to the fight.

In this conversation, we dive into the realities of representing yourself in court, why avoiding litigation whenever possible is critical, and strategic communication can turn fear into power. Lisa and Chris don't sugarcoat the process either, and that's what makes their advice so refreshingly clear, compassionate, and effective. The energy, insight, and

no-nonsense wisdom Lisa and Chris bring wherever they go lifted me and I know it will lift you too. Let's dive in.

Sol (00:57)
Hello, Chris and Lisa. Welcome to the program. It's so have you here

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (01:01)
Yeah, thanks, Sol. Good to say you. Yeah.

Sol (01:04)
Yeah, good to say you too. So I would love to start off by just saying how much I am a fan of your work. Been There Got Out is such an amazing program, great podcast. And it's an honor to have you on.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (01:16)
No, it's our pleasure to be here, of course.

Sol (01:18)
So Lisa, I would love to find out more about your experience. You both have had experience representing yourself in court. I'd like to know more about your perspective on how divorced people can approach the family court system.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (01:32)
Okay, well, big question, but in terms of representing yourself, going pro se, which is also called in California, pro per, or being a self-represented litigant is not something that most of us decide we want to do. We do it because we run out of money or we know we're going to run out of money because divorce is so expensive, especially high conflict divorce, which is what Chris and I deal with exclusively, you know, high...

Sol (01:35)
Yeah.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (01:57)
high conflict divorce, separation, co-parenting, and custody battles more than anything. And so these are the cases we always say that last for years and costs hundreds of thousands, if not more dollars, and the kids are put in the middle. So it's like a lifestyle, and it's a very hard lifestyle to fund. And so that's why we end up going pro se. But I think one of the biggest things to think about if you are considering going pro se,

is you have to be at a point where you're not emotional, which is really, really hard. And that's why we always say at the very beginning of the process, you should always have an attorney to get an original agreement or court order when it comes to like a divorce or a custody situation, because going pro se, at least you can have something limited. You're not establishing the foundation at the very beginning. But the emotional part is really, really hard.

We know the other side, the opposing counsel is gonna bully you, do whatever they can to get under your skin. being, understanding, I'll say proper courtroom demeanor and knowing that it's a business for everyone else, you have to behave like it's a business too, even though it's your life. And I think Lisa's resume representing herself is like so much longer than mine.

But to her point about being unemotional, you're not going to be completely unemotional, but it's just being able to function because there was a time probably six, seven years ago or so that as Lisa was embarking on her pro se career, where she said to me, you know, you're never going to be able to, represent yourself. offense. know. I didn't get it right at the time. She was absolutely right because I get around my ex and I'd lock up and

I wouldn't be able to think clearly. And certainly if her attorney was there, because she hired the bully attorney like they often do. But after I dealt with the trauma and a few ⁓ years later,

I've had success as a pro se as well. So, but it is really important to be able to compose yourself at least.

Sol (03:57)
I love that. Yeah, especially like you said, as a man, there's this idea that, we should be just automatically confident in such spaces, but it's incredibly intimidating to be in a courtroom, even when you're not yourself.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (04:10)
It's terrifying. I just was in that courthouse a couple weeks ago and It was so many appearances and it was so traumatizing and just walking in that building

can, you makes me feel a little uncomfortable.

Sol (04:21)
Now both of you, you've built a career around supporting people through one of the most intense times of their lives. And I'm curious, what was the aha moment where you decided that you wanted to do this?

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (04:33)
That was in Lisa's kitchen, like 2016 or so. It a long time ago. We were only a couple of years in and we were both going through these horrific legal situations and we were learning about

toxic personality issues and how the impact they can have on legal matters and that kind of thing. I remember saying to Lisa that if I could go back in time and start over knowing all that we we know now, I could save half the money it cost half the time. Who knows more

But I couldn't say, and who knows how much of the anguish and uncertainty and doubt about what my future would be, like all of that stuff. And I couldn't go back in time, of course, but Lisa and I realized that there were so many other people going through the same thing. We said, you know, there's something we could do with this. It started as a book project and then became what is now our coaching and education business online.

Yeah, it started off as this broad, like toxic relationship, you know, everything and now we're like legal abuse. Like legal abuse is our specialty.

Sol (05:38)
Unfortunately, there's a lot of demand for that, right?

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (05:41)
I know. We always say

have all this knowledge, wisdom and experience that we never wanted. Yeah. But here we are. Yeah. And I was tagged on my best education in the trenches 10 years of family and appellate court.

Sol (05:47)
I love that.

I think there's a quote I recall, maybe Lisa, you saying that my lawyer says that this is the craziest case they've ever had club. ⁓ And that's what you're building.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (06:02)
Yes.

Well, it exists and we're bringing people together who say, 'my lawyer says this is the craziest case they've ever had club', yep.

Sol (06:11)
For someone who's in the trenches right now and they're not self-represented, they're using an attorney, but maybe they're getting in and over their head, what are some practical steps for them to explore in terms of becoming self-represented?

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (06:24)
First it starts with getting that foundation, like getting some kind of order or some kind of agreement. If you're burning through money, we have had clients who before the initial divorce is over, they run out of money. We just met with one of our older clients yesterday and he he ended up going pro se because there was so much negotiation back and forth with his ex and her attorney,

that his lawyer gave him a bill for what trial would cost for three days. And what was it like $48,000? 48. Yeah. And that was after, more than a year together. And he was just like, I can't do seemed like it was mostly going to stay out of court. So we did a lot of strategizing with him in terms of how to negotiate effectively and really thinking about what he wanted in that final parenting plan in particular.

The assets were kind of secondary to him, but the parenting plan was the big thing. They did manage to settle outside of court and he represented himself. So, but it was really interesting seeing, you he gave us a copy of what his lawyer had said, what everything is going to cost for those three days. And most of it is trial prep. Going pro se you have to understand there's so much time spent preparing. You have to be ready to devote that

that time to it and a lot of that isn't just right before the trial, it's the paper trail that you're establishing leading up to knowing that you're gonna be back in court with this person. And of course, all of our clients, we always plan for that. And what we start with is strategic communication to start building that paper trail and that foundation of a really powerful case. And that time commitment is not trivial. I remember at the time, Lisa many years ago was an English teacher in high school.

And she was starting to think about maybe going back to that as a career. And once she got bogged down with the legal stuff as a pro se, she was like, I just can't, I can't do this now. Well, I go on an interview to go back to teaching and then it was like, I can't go because I'm in court. I have court. was like, forget it. I can't do this because there's no routine. Just. Yeah.

Sol (08:24)
It's a full-time job.

It's interesting you mentioned about your client, how he was able to get an advanced bill, an estimate of what this would cost him. And I hadn't really thought about the ability to do that, all along the way, I kept on just thinking, well, it'll be over soon.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (08:43)
Yeah, in our world, it's never over soon. And you know, when we first meet people, we say, where are you in the process? you're still in the relationship. B, you're in the middle of a divorce, separation, custody battle, or C, post judgment. And they'll often be like, well, we're just about done. I'm like, it's B. They're in the middle. You're not almost done.

Sol (09:03)
Well, and in the cases that you deal with, oftentimes these are not your typical normal case, right? These are oftentimes where the ex in the equation might have a personality disorder or something that causes them to want more conflict.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (09:09)
Never. Never.

They want engagement, they want attention. So they want, if they can't get your positive attention, they want your negative attention. So they'll do everything they can to just keep going. We say that once you're out of the day-to-day relationship, they can't still get at you. So they're limited to just these three things: money, kids, and the court, and money in the courts go hand in hand. And so they want to just keep it going. And that's the opposite.

Sol (09:21)
engagement.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (09:43)
of normal separation or divorce where it's like, we just want to move on with our lives, go our separate ways. We know it's the opposite with exes like ours.

Sol (09:51)
And even negative attention is positive often in their mind.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (09:55)
They thrive on the conflict. When you're in the relationship, they exert power and control over you, as Lisa said, but that never goes away. They never turn the page. They never look on to say like, "I've got a great new chapter of my life to write next," as healthy people do. Even when they have a new partner, even if they're remarried and have new kids, new family, they are still trying to punish their ex. And we often say it's like a clinging kind of hate.

And the courts are perfect for that. the attorneys they hire, the ones they choose, tend to be the bullies, like the really nasty ones who kind of don't care whether their story is founded in truth or what's truly best for the kids or anything. They just want to get paid, so they'll just spout whatever. They'll enable all the nonsense. They don't care.

Sol (10:43)
Wow, that's really hard. a client comes to you, oftentimes they've already been through the court system. Maybe they've already started self-representing What are some of the things that you find are common mistakes or pitfalls that they face?

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (10:59)
Popping off in their communication. So they don't think about that everything that is put on paper or in text or whatever, anything written can become an exhibit. And so obviously people are angry and emotional and so many people have made the mistake of getting those big feelings documented and it's used against them in court.

Sol (11:01)
Tell me more about that.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (11:21)
Sometimes Chris and I have to do what we call image rehabilitations. Where their lawyers are also very upset with how they've kind of ruined their own case. We've got extreme situations with those. And so that's something that we have to turn around. They often make very poor impressions on custody evaluators and judges. We say they've gone in with guns blazing.

They haven't understood proper courtroom decorum, which means that you're at the bottom and the judge is at the top and you don't go in there trying to educate your judge and acting like you're in charge because that is not your place. You need to be extremely respectful and a lot of people have not been and then they don't understand why people aren't aligning with their perspective. So they focus on the wrong. Right. Right. So they'll go in and say,

That person, my ex was abusive to me. There were these physical incidents and this psychological and emotional and financial abuse and all this stuff. And the judges, when it comes to custody, that's not a factor. it affected the kids, they usually don't care. There's like a set of factors that matter and most people have no idea what those are. And so,

that has been a problem. Like they've been making the wrong arguments and they've been wasting like lots of time and energy and money. And then of course they're really frustrated because all that is gone and they've gotten nowhere or it's been understanding like that ignorance has cost them. And I have this button from when I used to teach high school, cause I loved collecting bumper stickers and buttons. And it says, "if you think education is expensive, try ignorance." So we...

meet with people who have been ignorant, not to blame them, but they didn't know it because who would know how to act in a situation like this? And so it's a lot of like damage control and trying to turn things around, turn the narrative around. We use the analogy a lot of paying like whatever it costs, $6 million for a 30 second Super Bowl commercial, right? And you finally get the judge's attention, the judge is listening, looking you right in the eye,

and you say the wrong thing, you've got the wrong narrative and it just waters down or wipes out your case. Yeah, it's also really important to understand body language and to know who you really should be speaking to. For example, when you're in court on the witness stand, a lot of people have made the mistake of losing their temper or hysterically crying and then getting upset that nobody feels sorry for them without knowing that courts as well as police stations are

full of people lying and putting on acts all day. So there isn't that sympathy and empathy there. There's better ways to behave. And I think learning the art of persuasion is a big part of what we teach. your audience and knowing what's expected and how to properly behave and what'll get you more success is something many people haven't learned. That's why they end up on our doorstep, really upset.

Sol (14:06)
And to add to that, I've definitely heard the situations where clients will go into the courtroom trying to prove that their ex is the narcissist. And that term itself kind of blows back. It's not helpful at all.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (14:15)
Yeah.

Right. And even if someone, let's say someone's ex has been diagnosed as a narcissist, that doesn't really matter in terms of custody most of the time, because what people are looking for is not a diagnosis, which actually is covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act. They're looking for someone's patterns of behavior and the impact it has on children. A diagnosis isn't going to help anything. It's like, show me what has been happening so far and the visible impact on your children

that can be proven. So that's something a lot of people don't realize either.

Sol (14:49)
For your clients, do you suggest going the alternative resolution direction or typically just stick with the family court system?

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (14:59)
We want to do everything we can to keep our clients out of court for a really, really long list of reasons. One is the cost, which if you're pro se, you're not paying an attorney necessarily. But when you leave it up to a judge, you're leaving your whole future, your kid's future completely in the hands of a third party.

You don't know what kind of mood they're going to be in that day. I've had two different judges the day I settled with my ex. One decided something in the morning, but we didn't finish and we broke for lunch and we came back and guess what? We were in front of another judge and that judge made a totally different decision. It was crazy. Yeah. So, to the extent possible, if you can negotiate something, not only does it take it out of the hands of this unpredictable third party,

Sol (15:33)
Wow.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (15:42)
but also it allows you to do creative things. I'll give you a great example. I went to Lehigh University for my undergrad. And Lehigh has a really big rivalry with a school called Lafayette in football. I played football for Lehigh. I'll go back and it's this big rivalry locally. And I insisted that it be put in our parenting plan that when Lehigh plays Lafayette, I get that day to bring my kids to that game.

No judge would have ever ordered that. Maybe if I asked for it and had the airtime. not. But probably not. But years later, that one little thing, my older son is 21 years old and guess where he goes to college? He goes to my alma mater at least in part because he knew it and had an association with it from going back all those years. also, Chris and I belong to something called the Amicable Divorce Network.

It's a group of professionals all over the world. one of our goals is what's called child-centered divorce. We know that litigation fuels conflict. If there's alternative ways to keep it outside of the court, it doesn't let the conflict bleed as much onto the kids.

Sol (16:41)
I love that.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (16:41)
And on top

of that, you know your ex better than anyone. So you've probably learned ways to influence him or her. You probably know some ways to get a positive or negative reaction out of them. So you can use that in negotiations. And we have all kinds of techniques that we suggest to our clients to try this, try this, try this, to get them to.

to agree to something and the goal is not to get some huge victory. If you can, that's great. The goal is to get out intact and be able to move on with your life with as little damage to you and the children as possible.

Sol (17:14)
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get 10 % off with code Beyond10. Link in the show notes.

Sol AI (17:37)
And now, back to the show.

Sol (17:38)
Both of you are obviously very experienced in the legal system and navigating these sorts of environments. I'm sure though, looking at your could create a blooper reel of things that maybe went wrong. And I'm curious, what clips would you include?

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (17:54)
That's a great question. I once said, we were using a parenting coordinator and I once said in a session, I will never co-parent with you. And my ex wrote that down. I heard it back from her attorney. Oh my God, was that stupid? I put my foot in my mouth all the time, But that was, that was a memorable one.

Yeah. Didn't end up mattering at all. This is embarrassing, but I didn't know the term narcissist or anything about domestic violence really except physical. But I remember sitting in a conference room with my ex and being like, you're a narcissist. He's like, no, you are. I was dumb.

Sol (18:33)
Case closed.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (18:34)
Yeah, but also I think for me, being a writer, like I would craft these long, beautiful speeches in the beginning, the early years of when I was pro se and I'd go in and I had like, I had written pause and I'd practice in the mirror and I'd get through the first two sentences and judge would be like, Ms. Johnson, like get to it. What do you need? I'd be like, oh. And so there's a lot of shuffling around. So I learned to stop writing beautiful speeches.

This one isn't funny at all, but one mistake I made that was in a big pile of expensive mistakes was I had that goal of trying to prove that my ex had mental health issues, thinking it would somehow sway my case. So I signed right on for the psychological evaluation. And that I think was, I think it was $13,000 each, each!

Sol (19:02)
That's a good tip.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (19:23)
And when I got to read the reports, hers and mine, they were almost identical. I mean, these people are highly skilled, the people who our clients are confronting, or dealing with, are highly skilled manipulators. In most cases, they've been honing their craft since adolescence. So it's pretty easy for them to fool professionals, except for the occasional one that's like really dysregulated and completely out of control. But most of them are pretty manipulative.

And they they they sail through psychological evaluations and in fact come out the other side with like, look, I'm fine. You know, we gave him a clean bill of health and it cost us an arm and a leg and it didn't help our case. And yeah. I thought of one mistake that I made and that I think a lot of people make a huge expensive mistake. I used my attorney as my therapist. My attorney became my best friend and that cost one hundred thousand dollars for a year. And he's a lovely person, but.

Now I think back and that's a big part of what Chris and I do is there were other resources available that I didn't know about that could have been free or lot cheaper for my mental health. Yeah, we're not therapists, but we're I think pretty supportive. But either way, we're a lot cheaper than attorneys. Yeah. Right. But go to a therapist ideally and you let the therapist do the therapy. I'm a you know, certified domestic violence advocate and trained crisis counselors so we do deal with

Sol (20:32)
EEEE

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (20:40)
crises, we don't get into like therapy and all of that, but we are definitely used as venting, you know, for people to have venting sessions.

Sol (20:49)
Even the most qualified PhD therapist is going to be a lot cheaper than your average attorney. That's a really good point. And Chris, you brought this up earlier about navigating your traumas. And I'm curious if you have any more thoughts around how people can go through this process with the support and build their team. who should they be considering bringing onto their team to help them with this process?

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (20:55)
Yep.

Well, for sure, a trauma informed therapist, because forget lawyers understanding narcissism, even in the therapy world, there are a lot of therapists who don't really understand

abusive relationships where the control dynamic is like it is in the things we deal with. So getting the right therapist who can help you with those issues is paramount, paramount importance. The wrong can do damage. Yeah. And we have one, was yesterday or day before who gave legal advice. Oh my God. This is a blooper, but it's not ours. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I'm like saving this story.

I'm not gonna interrupt. You can finish. So my healing. I mean, I've been out 11 years almost. So part of it's just time and having a healthy relationship and doing the work that we do, I think has helped me heal for sure.

But one of the things that I found really fascinating is I did EMDR. You can Google it very easily. There's lots of information out there, but it has to do with rapid eye movement and dealing with trauma and there's other parts of it. But you distract your brain with this eye movement and it lets you get some stuff that's very deep come out. I did one full session of EMDR.

And it was partly to deal with one thing that was still kind of haunting me. And it was partly also just to learn and see what it was like, see how it would help. It was amazing. It was such a cool experience. The therapist needs to be trained specifically in that.

A lot of times we'll use like an analogy of a table. So a table with two legs is gonna fall over. Table with three legs, better, but not great. The table example we use has four legs, and it's your family

that offers you support, the people who love you, your friends, the people who are close to you. If you still have them. Yeah, a lot of our people have been isolated, but if you've got that leg, that's really important, but also recognize the limitations that those people have. They're not therapists either. My own mother, when I would tell her some of the things that were going on, she'd be like, what, really? I'm like, mom, you've known me my whole life. I'm not making this up.

They'll say things like, why doesn't the judge just do this? Or why doesn't your ex, why would they behave that way? It doesn't make any sense. Right, it doesn't make any sense. So you need professional therapy. We just talked about that, the right kind of therapy. And then you need also a lawyer. Their job is to advocate strongly for you, have a good strategy,

be responsive, be clear about billing, get the right stuff filed on time and procedurally make sure everything is done right. But they're not therapists. So don't ask them to be therapists and they're way, way more expensive than therapists. And then do you want to talk about the? You forgot to say us. So well, actually I'll tell the story. Yeah. Yeah. Tell the therapist story. I just, I just made a little video, but this just happened.

So the lawyers like translating your case into the law, but not your therapist. And your therapist shouldn't give legal advice. We just had a situation where a client who was newly divorced, they signed an agreement, they have a couple of kids. The other parent had some issues with one of the sons. And so the father actually recommended a therapist to work on their relationship together. Fine.

Mom supported it, they went and the therapist came out of the session and told the kid, you don't need to follow the parenting schedule because you know, I say that it's creating anxiety in you. And then she said to the mom, you're not protecting your child if you're making him go visit his father, because he's not comfortable visiting his father. So she told the kid, send a text to your dad, you don't have to do it. And they're gonna call the police and the police are gonna come.

And then they're gonna sign an attorney for the child and then you're gonna be in court, but you don't have to go. And I have other clients whose kids don't listen and just right now you can text your dad. So the kids in the parking lot are going, mom, can I send dad the things? Because she says I don't have to go and the person is telling us this and I'm just like, my God, like absolutely not. You can be in such legal peril from something like that. I was astonished that a therapist would be.

telling her basically to break the law.

mean, really jeopardizing like their whole life and they had just finished with court. So so even even when you have those pillars of a good attorney, a good therapist, good support from friends and family, there are still these cases are so unique and so difficult that there that still leaves gaps. And that's what Lisa and I do. We're that fourth. we fill in those gaps between

those other people who you're properly as the leader of the team and you have leadership on your case, you're keeping everybody doing their job, but you need somebody to fill in in between. We say we do what lawyers are not trained to do and therapists don't quite understand. So lawyers, are trained in logic. And of course, in these cases, logic doesn't apply. And we have to make sure we understand that not everyone is coming to the table to be fair or to do what's best for the kids.

So every interaction and especially negotiation has to be approached very, very differently because you're dealing with someone whose mindset is all about themselves. So keeping that in mind is that doesn't follow the normal cadence of divorce for most attorneys because they're like, well, why doesn't the other person just act logically and just stop burning through all this money or do what's right for the kids? Because they're not right. Something is off. So we have to handle it differently. And we always also say that

no one knows your ex better than you. And the only people that have to deal with the consequences are your family, you and your kids. So it's really important to get it right. And even if your lawyer doesn't understand what you're dealing with, you can take strategic oversight and you can learn and you can have a voice and say, I don't think that's going to work. Unless legally, we can't explore other options then we should consider some alternatives.

Sol (26:54)
You know, speaking to family table leg, it can be really complex. I know for myself, I leaned a lot on family, but oftentimes they have their own dynamic with your ex. There's a family system and oftentimes family systems act in strange ways, like trying to keep the peace, even if it means, you know, throwing you under the bus.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (27:14)
One thing, that, families do is they, do often have a relationship with your ex as well in our community, which was all victims of some type of domestic abuse. they've obviously been with someone who's been very manipulative and often that manipulation starts not just before the relationship ends, but it's not just with you, it's with the other people in your life. So

they will ingratiate themselves with your family and sometimes take your family away from you. And we say that pretty frequently in our community with our clients where their exes have aligned with their own often toxic family of origin. And then our clients are feeling really lonely and like losers because they're like, who's going to believe me? Because here my ex is with my family and they're going to think that I'm the bad person because I'm not even getting along with my

family of origin and it's a sensitive topic and we've definitely done interviews with professionals like Marnie Grunman in Canada who's a therapist and author who talks about the dynamics involved with this. It is such an isolating experience and especially in situations where kids have been turned against one parent, sometimes the original family know, the kid rejects that or the opposite, the ex takes the family and then uses it to say,

don't you want the kid to spend time with grandma and grandpa? And you're sort of like, what do do? It's, really tricky. Yeah. Yeah.

Sol (28:34)
It can get really complex.

Shifting gears for a moment, I'd like to talk about communication in these environments between co-parents. It can be really challenging to keep the peace and not have escalation in terms of the conflict. I know this is an expertise of yours, what are some tips that you can share with our audience about strategic communication?

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (28:55)
That's something that we spend more time on than anything else. It's a really, really big topic. And our first course that we rolled out recently is on that exact thing. The name of the course is how to communicate with your ex without destroying your case or losing your mind.

And communication with toxic exes is the number one way that people continue to be terrorized for months, for years after the end of a marriage or a relationship. People still get that like PTSD reaction where they see their ex's name in their inbox and they're like, oh my gosh, or the ding or anything. And so they need to start healing from that. But they're still terrified because they feel like,

if I'm not perfect, my ex is gonna take me to court and the judge is gonna believe them and they're making all these false accusations against me or like if I'm not a perfect parent, you know, then what's gonna happen to me? And so there's this constant sense of dread and overwhelm. And so I feel like strategic communication is the number one way to sort of get your ex out from squatting between your ears. And I have to give credit to Karen McMahon who gave me that term, I love it.

But strategic communication is like everything. We say it turns hearsay into evidence. It protects you from false claims of parental alienation. But most importantly, it turns the power dynamic around in the relationship where you're not the one terrified all the time at doing something wrong. But it's basically a system where you are communicating only in writing with your ex. You're writing to that person, but you are writing

for the invisible audience because we know this could be an exhibit. So this can be in front of a judge, a mediator, an attorney for a child, a therapist, whoever. And so you need to look like the most reasonable, best co-parent ever. And the goal with strategic communication as you're writing to your ex is that you wanna start documenting their patterns of behavior over time and the impact it has on your children,

but also on your relationship with your children because we know that one of the things that our exes do is they try to undermine our relationship with our children. And that's also the topic of the book that we're working on now because it's baked into legal abuse that your ex is going to try to turn the kids against you. So strategic communication is like the whole foundation of everything again, getting this targeted documentation together.

Doing short messages back and forth. Like Chris said, it's a big topic, but I think you want to say something. Yeah. Well, I was going to say the same thing applies that I said earlier about attorneys that logic, we make the mistake of thinking that logic applies even as well as we know them and even as irrationally as they behave throughout the relationship probably. So we'll say a lot of clients want to write to their exes and explain why this decision is the better decision.

And can't you see that this and this like, why are you behaving this way? They make these appeals as if their ex was a rational person. No, we always tell our people when that when your ex got that message, they loved it. They loved it. They rolled around. They probably wallpapered their bathroom in it because it made them feel so good. I've still got my hooks in in you. Right. So we got to get away from the idea of logic applying. And and as Lisa said,

If you've solved a problem, that's great. If you can work out a swap weekend or choose a therapist together or whatever it is, that is wonderful. But you need to have reasonable expectations. Probably not going to happen. But it can do other things. It can support your case.

There's lots of things you can do, but it doesn't always lead to like, let's decide between A and B. Good, we both made a rational decision. Let's move on. Let's have realistic expectations with that. Yeah. And so one of the people that we love is Bill Eddy. And a lot of people have heard of BIFF, the brief, informative, factual, friendly or firm. And we were lucky enough to interview him like a month or two ago.

But anyway, but our strategic communication system is different. Our model is different because it's a little more specific. Like, Bill's is great, but it doesn't give you like the actual technical, like this sentence comes first and then do something about that. So ours is called FRAC and we're not gonna give it away here, but you can take a look at our free webinar that talks a little bit about it.

Sol (33:07)
It's an excellent program and we'll provide links in the show notes. Speaking of communication, I think of, of course, documentation. In these cases, it's so important to keep updated, keep a good journal. And I'd like to ask you, maybe this question is more for you, Chris, given your experience with technology. Where do you see things going in terms of innovations like AI, digital tools, and the role that they play in helping

pro se litigants to support their case.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (33:36)
I think nothing beats just a journal, just having even a pad of paper next to your desk and writing down the things when they come up. We've seen different clients approach their documentation different ways.

documentation, we've seen detour.life, which is one of our friends in the Amicable Divorce Network launched this company and it integrates all through like banking system, you can connect and get your financial statements and it really makes getting ready for divorce more efficient for everybody.

So we're excited about that and where she takes that company. I'm trying to think what else from a technology standpoint. Well, thinking like AI is a great tool. But for me, one of the benefits of learning strategic communication, certainly you can use AI to help you write it. But it's that getting your power back, like not being so scared. Like AI can't do it for you alone. It's something that should be supplemental, but that's not going to fix your head.

So, you know, it's helpful, but I think healing and getting emotional support and strategic support is empowering.

Sol (34:40)
Now in terms therapy and healing yourself, one of the frames that I find really helpful is really looking at your ex as being your teacher or uke. And,

that person in your life is there to help you get stronger. You can start viewing those "attacks" as a lesson. And so I really hear you when you talk about if you resort to just using tools, then you're leaving yourself maybe a little bit more fearful than you would if you were actually learning yourself the tools and going through the process of growth and learning.

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (35:12)
Tools are helpful, but I think it's, goes together. It's the knowledge of how to use the tools, but it is, it is so rewarding to say our clients who we, we have this, this, hashtag from puddle to ninja.

Most people meet us and they're a mess. a lot of our clients are highly successful, well-educated human beings who are great in all areas of their lives and they've dealt with this difficult person and they're really ashamed and embarrassed, probably even more ashamed because they're so successful. But they're just like, I don't know what's wrong with me. I can't communicate with my ex and I don't know how to deal with any of this.

Completely overwhelmed and so especially with strategic communication when they start realizing, okay, this is what matters. This is what doesn't here's how I can put together this formula. Here's what it means when they hit me back with this angry wall of text instead of just being like, no Like they're attacking me like this is good. Like their anger is my gold. This is powerful for my case. Whereas in the past it would be like

terrorizing, like, no, now I'm going to use it. So from puddle to ninja, they change from being a mess to being like, I am learning that this is helpful for me. And it's just wonderful to also see people. We meet everyone virtually. But we do see their faces up close. We've seen people's appearance change because they've been holding their breath or they just their whole the palette of their face. They were so affected by stress,

that they start changing. They start looking healthier. They start looking younger. They start breathing more easily. We've seen a lot of them enter healthy relationships afterward. A number of our clients have gotten married. The person that we were talking to yesterday one who had gone pro se, and it's now a year later, how things have gotten so much better for him. Not just with the post-separation stuff, but

in terms of him being able to work on himself. And so it's such a pleasure to really see like these transformations happening. A lot of them really, really quickly, like seeing someone who's terrified. We do like one or two meetings together and start teaching strategic communication in particular. And then like, look at the progress. Like you were completely in a panic. And now you can at least pause a little bit. It's just amazing. We hear this all the time,

I'm afraid I'm going to do something wrong and mess up my case. People don't know what is the judge looking for. Wait a minute. Like these communications can be submitted as evidence. Well, what do I say? How do I make myself look good?

Right? Not falsely, but how do I let the great parent I am and the cooperative person I normally am show through in my communication so that third party would judge me favorably. I think they're thinking the opposite. They're like, how do I not mess up? I'm terrified of messing up. Like, please help. You know, I don't want to do anything wrong. I think the way that that we help them in particular is helping them say, I always say this, like really focused and organized.

When you know what's expected of you, when you know how to organize that information, it calms you down and you have more confidence because you know what you're doing. One of the big things that our clients get hit with are false claims of parental alienation. They're always like, oh my God, my ex is saying this. And we're like, of course they're saying it. They all say it. Even saying that calms them down. So we're like, oh really? Oh, okay. I thought it was just me. And then it's like, we can teach you

how an alienation case is built. Just knowing okay, I don't have to be scared of this

this big word that's being thrown at me, that's really helpful. So knowledge is everything. Right, exactly. And to build on that, toxic people, whether it's narcissism, borderline, whatever, we don't diagnose anyone. We're focused on the patterns of behavior. But they're incredibly, incredibly consistent. There's still people, they still have their personalities, they still have little nuances. But those behaviors that you read about when you read a good article on personality disorders,

it's a long list, right? From projection, to not accepting responsibility. It's a very, very long list. They, most of them do most of those things. So it's pretty predictable. And the tactics they use in court cases are pretty predictable. We see it all the time. That's what allows Lisa and I to do what we do. If they all behave completely differently, we wouldn't know what to suggest, right?

That's why people say, why are you guys so calm? cause we already know. The worst things, we've dealt with it, all the time. We hear very, very few things for the first time, but we get great stories. Yes, we do. Oh my gosh. Especially being a writer. I'm like, wow, I always have things to talk about. We have lots to talk about all the time.

Sol (39:38)
You've seen it.

I love it. Chris and Lisa, thank you so much for being on the program today. For our listeners who would like to connect with you further and I understand you have a new program out and an upcoming book, can you tell us a little bit more about your offerings and how people can connect with you?

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (40:05)
Well, we're super easy to find. We've got website, BeenThereGotOut.com. We're hoping to roll out a new version of it pretty soon, sometime over the summer. that all falls to me. I love doing that stuff. We're all over social media. If you just search for Been There Got Out. Lisa does an amazing job posting a couple of times a day on Instagram. And then that goes to our other channels.

We're everywhere, very easy to find our book, Been There, Got Out is on Amazon. That one right there. So this one came out, this one's already out. But the new one is called Been There, Got Out: How to Handle When Your Ex Turns the Kids Against You. It's unfortunately, that is one of the most common things that we say in our community. the book should be out in November, according to the publisher. And then we're gonna do a big course on this. Hopefully this summer, and that's on me.

So we'll see but then the big thing, I mentioned our strategic communication course, that was the first one of about seven different courses that we're gonna try to get out as many as possible this year, but it's for this online education program called From Fear to Fierce in Family Court. This first one was how to communicate with your ex without destroying your case or losing your mind. And the next one is Chris is a superstar. Yep, it's on high conflict

parenting plans or parallel parenting plans, which is something that we were talking before about things that people don't know that give them fear because they don't understand them. Well, parenting plans are a huge topic also. So that one's coming out. And then the next one after that will be the alienation one, is related to the book very closely.

Yeah, and then we'll see, but there's going to be one on pro se and presentation and targeted documentation and taking strategic oversight and negotiation.

Sol (41:49)
Great, yeah, we'll put links in the show notes. And there's the last question here lingering. You both are so productive in your output and you're doing it together as a couple. And I'm curious if you have any tips and advice on how you manage that, how do you do this as a partnership?

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (42:05)
I guess it starts with the right partner. You find the love of your life after going through hell for a decade. That's my formula. We're both super creative. And I just love spending time with her and like with what we've done with the business. It's like we get to spend all day doing this super creative

super intensive and really helpful and beneficial business. And then at night we watch movies or go to wherever. No, we just we never stop talking. That's the issue. And from our first date where we met and like a couple hours long with hands flying and water almost spilling over, and it ended up being this lively conversation. I thought,

that first time, I think I've met the male version of me. And it's been since then.

I'm a note taker. take notes on everything. I'll be like, Oh, I've got all these ideas and we just have to do them. of energy. Yep. That's how we get.

Sol (43:04)
Thanks for being

on today, guys. Really

Chris & Lisa | BTGO (43:05)
Our pleasure.

Thank you so much for hosting us.

Sol (43:08)
Of course, anytime.

Sol (43:11)
Thanks for joining us on the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. To support our show, subscribe or leave a rating. Links for all books and resources mentioned on appear in our show notes or on CoparentingBeyondConflict.com. See you next time.

Sol (43:28)
The commentary and opinions available on this podcast are for informational and entertainment purposes only, and not for the purpose of providing legal or psychological advice. You should contact a licensed attorney, coach, or therapist in your state to obtain advice with respect to any particular issue or problem.