Sol (00:01)
Welcome to Coparenting Beyond Conflict. I'm your host, Sol. Today, I'm joined by Heather Wolfe, a retired social worker, author, and a fierce advocate for families navigating the emotional landmines of high conflict co-parenting. Heather brings decades of experience in family court and child services. What really struck me about our conversation was how practical and personal her advice felt. Heather truly gets it.

She offers a clear roadmap for protecting your peace and your children. If you're looking for tools, validation, and a way forward, this one's for you. Let's dive in.

Sol (00:30)
Hi, Heather, welcome to the podcast. It's so good having you here today.

Heather Wolfe (00:34)
Thank you. It's great to be here.

Sol (00:36)
I'm curious to hear about your story. How did you end up becoming interested in supporting co-parents in this way and also becoming an author?

Heather Wolfe (00:43)
I worked in social work for over 30 My last position over 20 years was in child and family services. I did all the different positions from intake to investigations to case management. I was in family court an awful lot.

What I became aware of is there's a lot of high conflict, co-parenting or court cases. And oftentimes our system would be asked to look into some allegations around certain things. When I retired, I felt that I still wanted to contribute and to help people. And I thought that based on my experience,

professionally as well as as personally as a child, I felt that I had something to offer. And so I decided to write this book because I believe narcissism is a global issue that's not really being addressed based on how we define it so narrowly in the DSM. So people with the traits, but not the diagnosis are getting completely missed.

People don't understand, the courts don't understand, you have to go to a specific therapist who understands these issues and how to maneuver it. I thought it was important work.

Sol (01:53)
When someone reads your book what are you hoping that they take away from it?

Heather Wolfe (01:57)
In a nutshell, I just want people to not give up, not to blame themselves for what's happening. This book will give you hope if you implement these strategies. It's not just theory, there's actual clear strategies on what to do, whether you're in a current toxic relationship or you have left. Everyone's situation is that is why, I

didn't specifically write it for people that have already left. However, if you're in this environment, you can still use the strategies.

Sol (02:29)
Speaking to a parent who is with a partner that they're struggling with, maybe they're starting to learn some terms like narcissism, codependency, and they're waking up to the relationship that they're in, even those that are now co-parents and have gone through the process, we can relate to what that experience is like. So speaking to those parents, what might they be

looking for in terms of how do they know if their ex is a narcissist, if they're codependent, if they're the narcissist, what would you say to them?

Heather Wolfe (02:58)
Men and women typically present differently in terms of narcissism. And there are female narcissists, so I made my book gender neutral. I also included a multicultural component because it is global. The two that I'm going to talk about are the two predominant subtypes of narcissism. That's grandiose, which is typically a male situation, and

vulnerable or covert, which is typically a female version. What's happened as a result of how we see things through the DSM, we've missed a lot of female narcissists. So there's a gender stereotype and they get often diagnosed as borderline or histrionic when actually they're narcissistic. They're harder to pick up. And the other thing is, is that males

are also not really wanting to say, yes, I'm being abused. There's that societal stereotype there. So I just wanted to make that clear that there are women out there, but I think it's under diagnosed or rather not recognized as traits because there's a lot of people that have traits and don't meet this diagnostic criteria.

A grandiose, which is typically male, narcissist will talk as if, they're the best thing out there. They make up stories about how great they are. They are really smooth. They're very manipulative. They may lack empathy. And when they manipulate, it's always in their best interests for things. That's

typically what happens with grandiose people is that all of a sudden, wow, this is the best person I've met in my life. I met them three weeks ago, let's get married. That a typical example and they seem like they're the greatest person out there. Now, a covert narcissist is typically female, but it doesn't have to be. It's someone who is looking vulnerable and portraying neediness

but underneath they are manipulating the scenario in their favor. And so again, women tend to be more emotional and tend to be more moody. And this is why vulnerable fits a little bit better with women.

Sol (05:07)
That's so interesting. Now, is there a checklist that you have that that listeners could use to determine whether or not their partner is a narcissist?

Heather Wolfe (05:17)
I do. It focuses on a broad spectrum because there are about seven or eight different subtypes. For example, cerebral narcissists.

They are narcissists that talk intellectually. They're way better than you and they manipulate that way. So how do you deal with them? You present logic, for example. Vulnerable, you don't get involved in the drama. You redirect. The subtypes there's about eight different ones that you can look at, but the checklist will go over a variety of them.

Never making mistakes, always being special, entitled, just walking around like everybody owes them, right? And manipulation is the hugest part of this, as well as the lack of empathy. They're very, very self-absorbed, most narcissists.

Whether they present as vulnerable or they present as grandiose or whatever. It's all about them and how do they get what they need in life.

They're also sort of like an empty shell. there's really no substance to these individuals because all they're focused on is getting what they call the narcissistic supply because they're very, very insecure, usually and if they don't control everything or don't get their way, that's a trigger for them. And so they have to then up the ante and be mean and abusive and

whatever pattern they're gonna choose.

Sol (06:40)
So what is narcissistic supply?

Heather Wolfe (06:42)
Narcissistic supply is anything that gives them what they need. It can be everything from, "oh, you're the greatest person, you're so talented," so mean" and just berating you.

They will not disengage until finally they know you're not a source of narcissistic supply to them. And the only way to do that is to minimize contact and to have clear legal orders.

Sol (07:09)
That was going to be my next question. Once you've realized this about your relationship, maybe you've already gone through divorce or maybe you're in the process, it sounds like you're advocating for people to be aware of narcissistic supply. And then how do they step away from providing that supply?

Heather Wolfe (07:28)
Well, there's three big things. First thing, radical acceptance in any high conflict situation. You're not agreeing with it. You're accepting it. It is what it is. It will help you be less stressed and focus on what you can control because you can't control anybody else. And that's where everyone gets so stressed.

You can't control that they're saying malicious things about you and that you're a bad parent. So if you can look at that piece first in terms of taking a step back and it's not easy to do because everybody wants to defend themselves. They want to rationalize and explain. The narcissist doesn't care about any of that. He cares about rattling you or she cares about getting their supply.

So that's the first thing that people need to do is accept that. Then they need a very, very good plan and a good support.

There are lawyers that do mediation, but they also need to understand narcissistic tactics. So shop around for your lawyer. Interview people, ask people that have had good lawyers in similar circumstances.

You need to document everything under the sun. It sounds like overkill, it's not. Because that's how you win, especially when they're in court and they're lying.

The other thing is, is the hardest part of this again is respond to things. Don't react. And again, that's part of the radical approach, So in court, don't start yelling they're lying and cause it'll get into a he said, she said, and it looks like children fighting. You don't want to have that. So be as calm as you can.

Have everything documented. And again, don't respond. You can use the gray rock method, which is basically very minimal responses act as if you're kind of dull. There's obviously the third party apps such as yours that are very, very helpful, especially because it's easy to get triggered in these kinds of scenarios. And I like the fact that your app takes that out because it's, it's making life simpler for people.

When you're in a parallel parenting scenario, that is a lot easier to keep boundaries because you're having minimal contact. But a lot of people get into the parallel parenting and they get their order and they don't follow the order.

If you give someone that needs control the ability, like a loophole of some sort, they're going to run with it and they're going to take it and they're going to say, I need this weekend. And then they're going to say, she asked me or he asked me to change. Like they're going to totally gaslight, manipulate, change everything around.

So it's important for your self-preservation, your children's protection, you follow the order. If there's a safety risk, you talk to your lawyer and then you talk about what you need to do.

But preparation, understand what you're dealing with before you get in there, have no surprises, and you will do way better because you'll be able then to provide your lawyer with everything that you need. And based on the fact that you have a good lawyer, right? Or again, if they are experienced, they can do mediation, but there's certain, there's very specific ways to do mediation with high conflict because if you say, I want this, that's the first thing that they're not,

going to give you. That's a whole separate thing on how to negotiate with a narcissist. But I really think that it's not always possible. But sometimes it is if you have a good mediator because that's what the courts want. They want you to mediate first. The other thing is don't settle. Get what you need. Get financial orders. Get spousal support. Whatever it is.

Don't give up. That's what they want you to do. They wanna say, I'll give you this X amount to stop everything now, or you know what you need, right? And they will hide things. They will hide bank so you have to be prepared for all of this stuff. You use subpoenas, for example, to get bank statements. Never ask the high conflict parent directly, because...

They'll give you a four out of five pages or something, or they'll keep delaying financial abuse and emotional abuse is all part of, even the court process for these folks. It's so hard to get your head around all of this because you married them. You're like, how can this person be like this?

Sol (11:46)
Yeah. you brought up a really good

Typically high conflict personalities tend to hire their equivalent in the legal system. So you should expect that if you're dealing with a narcissistic or high conflict co-parent that they're likely to hire a narcissistic high conflict attorney, which will use these type of tactics that you're talking about lying, gaslighting, trying to wear you down.

Heather Wolfe (12:11)
Yes.

Sol (12:18)
I just want to underline this point you made. It's so important to advocate for your interests and not get worn down. Realize that these are all tactics that are used time and again to get you to feel worn down. They know that you're the more reasonable parent and you want to get away from the conflict. But if you can just stick with it, even if it means hiring a really good attorney that can help you advocate for your interests.

Heather Wolfe (12:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sol (12:42)
It's really worth it to do that upfront to ensure that your orders are going to stick with you and prevent abuse forward.

Heather Wolfe (12:52)
Exactly. That's what I recommend. Now, I don't recommend, even though the tendency is, "I want a bulldog of a lawyer, I want to get him or her back." All the stuff they did to me. Well, the narcissist doesn't care about that. What you're doing is you're hurting yourself because you don't necessarily want a bulldog if you got a bulldog that you're going up against.

When you interview lawyers, ask them all sorts of questions like when would you see a custody evaluation is important? What's your thoughts on parallel parenting? Do you have mediation experience? Do you like to settle your cases? A lot of people just settle

because they can't deal with it anymore. So number one, again, find the right lawyer. You give them the information and make sure that they're the right fit for you so that you can get what you need. They'll tell you if you're realistic or not and your expectations, but let me tell you that if you document all of that and not how you think about things, how you feel, facts

only. "He showed up at this time, missed a visit here, said this to the child." The other thing that you need to think about, I know I'm a bit all over the map, but you need to try to have a third party present when you're with that individual because they will twist it all around. So if you have a witness to it, then if you need that later on, you can bring them into court.

Sol (14:13)
Now, you mentioned about the support network and having a good attorney. There are other people that can serve as a good support network and some that maybe aren't the best supporters in a scenario like this. Can you talk to that?

Heather Wolfe (14:28)
Sure, I always think a professional whenever possible that understands, trauma and narcissistic abuse, but depends where you live, there may be a shortage of this kind of resource, but someone that understands trauma is usually available, not necessarily narcissistic abuse. Family and friends, I caution you around that because unfortunately,

the narcissist presents a public persona and a private persona. He looks or she looks like the greatest person that treats you very well. And as soon as they're home, they're back to the same old abusive tactics, It's easy for people that don't really know. Even family, they can side with your ex on things. And unfortunately that happens.

Everything from church to...

teachers to therapists to the right friends. You don't want people just going, "oh, are you sure that he's that bad? Or she's that bad. Do you want to leave? Are you sure? He's a good guy." So that doesn't help. You need the people that will actually be open minded to everything. And again, it's so hard to get your head around. So unfortunately, a lot of times family and friends don't get it.

But what I would suggest, only the ones that matter to you, we all have family members that don't matter as much as others. So if you can say, look, this is what's happening here. I really need you not to talk to my ex about anything we're doing, but here's some information on what a narcissist is. If you can support me

that way great if not I guess I can't really be counting on that.

Sol (16:04)
Yeah, it's so hard, and a lot of people that haven't gone through this or aren't professionally trained to understand narcissistic abuse are not going to get it and are actually going to probably fall into the narcissist trap because at the end of the day, your ex is likely to be using covert manipulative tactics to get your family, to get your friends on their side.

Heather Wolfe (16:29)
Yes.

Sol (16:29)
and

they won't necessarily even notice that it's happening. So you'll get messages via your friends or your family that end up being like the dog whistle that'll have you feeling really upset. So your ex is just finding new ways to get to you and get at you. What you said is totally right on, Heather, that really we should be looking for professional support when it comes to this.

Heather Wolfe (16:41)
Yes.

Sol (16:53)
and whenever needed to reduce contact with family members that aren't willing to do that cutoff.

Heather Wolfe (16:58)
Yep.

Yes, and that is hard because of course you got grandparents in the mix.

Until the court stuff is done, you may have to just disengage from some of the extra family that you have. But it's hard because they're the grandparents. And how do you explain that to your children? Right?

Sol (17:20)
Heather, you mentioned parallel parenting, and I understand that you're an advocate for it in these types of situations. Can you tell us what parallel parenting looks like and why someone might consider that?

Heather Wolfe (17:30)
Basically it's collaborative versus individual. you're doing your individual parenting, it's parallel. You controlling what you can in your home. You don't go to parent teacher interviews together, you don't go to doctor's appointments, they're all separate,

That's what a parallel parenting order is. You control the routines and the structure in your house. They control theirs.

The reason why I put this in my book and I started off with cooperative co-parenting is because some people are actually still in the home and they can still use some of these strategies.

But I think you do need to move more to the parallel, depending on the severity of your narcissist. But my book focused on more moderate.

Sol (18:12)
That's so interesting. my understanding is that the court system generally doesn't advocate for parallel parenting. I really appreciate your perspective and why do think the courts haven't really caught up to speed on this?

Heather Wolfe (18:23)
Well, I think there's a bunch of factors, but one thing is I don't think they understand what actually is going on, that they don't understand the narcissistic abuse part of No fault of the courts. I mean, the lawyers don't understand, the broader society doesn't really, because we haven't recognized narcissistic traits. We call it toxic relationships pretty much. And I think if you dig deeper, and this is just my guess, that you will find

narcissistic traits somewhere in each of those relationships. Because most people go, hey, I don't want to go to court, let's settle. And if they can settle, they settle. They're logical, they're rational, they're fair. The other thing is, a lot of courts are leaning towards joint custody. And joint custody suggests,

really co-parenting and the court believes that you should be able to get along. That's the bottom line, for your children. And it just doesn't happen. I think it's gonna take a while for the courts to come around with all of this. But if you've presented the evidence that shows the abuse and shows

the impact to the child in family court, you should not have a problem with getting parallel parenting.

Sol (19:32)
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get 10 % off with code Beyond10. Link in the show notes.

Sol AI (19:54)
And now, back to the show.

Sol (19:56)
That's a great point about evidence and documentation. One of the features of the BestInterest app is that you can actually document everything in timestamps, geotagged. So you brought up, Heather, the example of when your ex is showing up late. Sometimes it's actually just really helpful to document every exchange, the location, the time that you make successfully, because what can end up happening is

they might pull in witnesses, they might even try to build evidence to then say that you were late. So if you have that evidence in a court documented fashion, you can protect yourself from the lies that will come to you in the court. But then also having this documentation can help you advocate for parallel parenting and creating more separation.

Heather Wolfe (20:26)
Yes.

Sol (20:42)
If the judge sees that there is a lot of conflict, they'll understand that that's not in the child's best interest. So having that documentation is key because they're not going to just take your word for it.

Heather Wolfe (20:50)
Exactly. That is where people make the mistake. They think, I can just talk to the judge. Well, you need to understand the language of the And that is statute and the law. So best interests of the child is pretty much family law for custody types of cases. that's the piece that you need to stress is that this is not in the best interests of the child.

You need to document the behavior. So "I was there, but he was late. My child was crying." In a parallel parenting plan, you must be very, very specific. I mean, everything from

time of day, time, location for pickup, the type of custody that's there, the holidays, emergencies, because if you give them a loophole, like I said, they will run with it. So it reduces your conflict and stress, but it also provides the children with less conflict between

you guys. You don't want your children to be exposed to that because of course, there's enough challenge with having to deal with whatever the ex is doing in their home. You can't control what they do.

How do you know if you need parallel parenting? There's three questions to ask yourself: What's the impact on the child? How often are we having conflict? What's the intensity? Are they violating all the boundaries that I've tried to set up? And are they using our children to send messages? How you figure out if they're impacted is you observe their behavior.

You have family meetings, you have conversations about, I see that you're upset, can you tell me more about that? It's all open-ended questions. Let them talk, don't judge, just let it be an environment where they feel that they can talk to you about anything at any time. And that's all part of creating a supportive home environment. The other piece that your child needs is extracurricular positive activities.

It gets them out of the chaos and the conflict. It builds healthy connections usually, and they'll have coaches or teachers that will be involved that will give them some of those self-esteem building activities. And that for me was in spite of all my upbringing, what made me successful.

So that is very important.

Sol (22:59)
Such a great point about involving them in extracurriculars. It gives your kids a chance to experience other adult relationships and interactions.

Heather Wolfe (23:08)
Yes.

Yes, exactly. So that that really is is a big source of support, whether they're in counseling or not, you can start with that.

The other big piece here is self-care. If you are not protecting yourself and taking care of yourself, you're not the best parent you can be. When you're dysregulated, what are you role modeling to your children? You're not able to help them through the difficult time. As the parent, you really need to go, yes, I need that professional support,

or a support group or online, but do something.

Sol (23:41)
I'm wondering, when you talk about self-care, what does that look like for co-parents? Do you have any mantras or mindset shifts or

that you can recommend for a co-parent to take on.

Heather Wolfe (23:53)
So yes, unfortunately in narcissistic and high conflict personality parenting, you've got the deterioration of your self-worth usually. And if you've stayed home, raised the kids, you've lost some of that outside support, so you're isolated. You need to really rebuild yourself, really, and your life. And it's hard, but you can do it.

My suggestion is do something that you love. Find something. If you used to like knitting, go back to that. Whatever it is that gives you joy, because you need some positives out of all of this. I'm hoping you're not going to be in conflict too much with all the different strategies, but if you are, take the deep breath, say, hey, you know what? This is getting heated. Walk away, right?

That's a huge part of self-care is don't engage. It's business-like and it's so hard because you've lived with this person, you married them, you have kids together. Regular sleep, physical activity is huge, whether it's just walking around the block or whatever and connecting with people.

Not necessarily everyone that is in the narcissistic support group, Because they're focused on particular things and it's kind of heavy. If you liked golf, go out and golf if you can. I know this is easier said than done, but it could be as simple as a cup of tea.

Sol (25:14)
giving yourself the space to try out things because, honestly, a lot of us have we really are and how we define ourselves and what we even like. So just try out some new things. Join a meetup group and just see what it's like to go hiking with a bunch of strangers.

Heather Wolfe (25:23)
Yes.

Yeah, exactly. It's going to feel odd at first, because you're not used to being out there on your own, so to speak, but you get used to it and it'll be helpful for you.

Sol (25:39)
Are you ready for our lightning round?

Heather Wolfe (25:41)
Okay, I'll try.

Sol (25:41)
Okay,

what is the biggest myth about co-parenting with a narcissist?

Heather Wolfe (25:47)
Well, that narcissists don't love, I think is one of the biggest myths. I think that they love, or at least research says they love, but it's conditional. So if you do well in school and it reflects on

I think they can love. It's just different. The children always internalize everything and it's so hard on them,

and they do blame themselves. I wasn't a good child or I didn't do this right or perfectionism. Then you get people pleasing, you get all those other things that come as a result.

Sol (26:17)
A lot of us can probably relate to having parents that are also on the spectrum of narcissism. That's why we're here. The goal is to model for our kids. What's the most important thing to model to your children even if your ex is modeling the opposite?

Heather Wolfe (26:24)
Yes.

Well, I think boundaries and healthy relationships. You need to teach children how to be empathetic. They don't just all of a sudden know how to do that, and particularly if they have a co-parent. There's role modeling, there's stories, there's ways to show them what healthier relationships are about,

I think that's really important. And the boundary thing, you can say no. If you're not comfortable with something. You need to set a boundary and you can say no. And you can say to a trusted adult, I'm not comfortable, this is what happened.

Modeling healthy relationships through appropriate communication I think those are the biggest two for me.

Sol (27:12)
That's great. What's one thing that a co-parent should stop doing immediately if their ex is toxic?

Heather Wolfe (27:18)
The first thing is if you can just stop engaging. It depends on the severity. If it's a scenario where it's not as severe, just try to not engage and put your plan together.

Prepare, get your lawyer, get your documents, and watch your communication, because that is the biggest thing. The biggest stressor is all this interaction that you have.

Sol (27:38)
Yeah, that's a really good point and it talks to your previous points about documenting, but also how you really shouldn't engage in these games of control. So if your ex is doing something that you would identify as not what you would like, it sounds like you would advocate for just documenting it

and moving on rather than calling them out on it.

Heather Wolfe (28:01)
Correct, because that will get you nowhere. Because he or she will say, well, this is my house, I'm doing it my way. Then the kids come home and you can go, yes, that's what they do there. I know it's different, but this is what we do here.

Sol (28:13)
And as much as that can be a paradigm shift in your own mind of letting go of that control, it actually can be a grief process of realizing you don't have any control of half the time your children are growing up. It can be so relieving to disconnect from that.

Heather Wolfe (28:31)
for sure. When you divorce, you have a grief process. When you divorce a narcissist, you have even more grief because you're grieving the loss of what you thought you had. A loving partner, good marriage, and then it turned into all this abuse that you just didn't see coming. And again, don't blame yourself. These people are manipulative

and you believed them. Why wouldn't you believe them, right?

Sol (28:57)
such a good point about grief. And I would add to that, that for the listener who is either beginning the process or already a co-parent and experiencing toxic cycles, the experience actually can be that you're with a challenging partner, you leave them and suddenly they're actually acting very differently towards you. They are more antagonistic,

like the mask has come off. And so you almost have to grieve that idealized notion that we all have going into this, that you will be able to co-parent with this person, maybe ever.

Heather Wolfe (29:22)
Right.

Right, and because I wanted to write a book that covered all possibilities, I didn't want to, eliminate anyone that might get some help from the book. You do come to that realization, over time that you cannot co-parent.

Sol (29:43)
If you could send a message to a parent who feels completely alone or overwhelmed right now, what would it be?

Heather Wolfe (29:51)
You can do this. You're tired and exhausted. Get a break, get some support, reframe this. Document everything. Don't give up. There's hope. You can be successful and happy and overcome it. And that's the key. You want

minimize the impact, Because I don't think that you can not have an impact with a narcissist, but minimize it.

Sol (30:13)
I'm so excited about your book and how can people who want to take a look at your book and the resources there obtain it.

Heather Wolfe (30:22)
It's on Amazon so they can go on there or if they're interested in checking out like I'm writing more books and I have a website it's called but it's EmpoweringSH.com and this is the whole reason I'm doing this because I'm retired and I still wanted to be able to give back and to make a difference for people.

Sol (30:44)
I love that Heather. Thank you so much for being on today. It's been a really enlightening and helpful conversation.

Heather Wolfe (30:49)
Thank you. I appreciate you having me on.

Sol (30:53)
Thanks for joining us on the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. To support our show, subscribe or leave a rating. Links for all books and resources mentioned on appear in our show notes or on CoparentingBeyondConflict.com. See you next time.

Sol (31:10)
The commentary and opinions available on this podcast are for informational and entertainment purposes only, and not for the purpose of providing legal or psychological advice. You should contact a licensed attorney, coach, or therapist in your state to obtain advice with respect to any particular issue or problem.