Sol (00:01)
Welcome to Co-Parenting Beyond Conflict. I'm your host, Sol. If you've ever been told to go get a bulldog attorney, well, this episode might just change your mind. I'm joined by Elise Buie, a seasoned family attorney who's seen firsthand how scorched earth strategies can backfire and how understanding what's really driving your ex's behavior might be the key to setting yourself free. We talk about boundaries, fear, and what it really means to lead with heart in the face of conflict.

Let's dive in.

Sol (00:28)
Elise, so nice to have you here today. Thank you for joining us on the podcast.

Elise Buie (00:31)
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Sol (00:34)
I'm really excited about talking about these very important topics with you today.

I love meeting with family law attorneys that seem to really get it, that it's not about winning and losing. It's really about finding the heart in family law. And sometimes to me, just candidly, it feels like the legal system

becomes about winning and losing and fighting and not about what's best for the kids. I'm curious, how did that perspective come to you? Has it always been part of your approach or is it something that developed over time?

Elise Buie (01:09)
It has always been part of my approach as a divorce attorney and it developed over time through my own divorce. was not a divorce attorney initially when I started practicing law. I started years ago doing insurance defense litigation and then quit, stayed home with my kids for a long time. Then my husband and I, who's my ex now, found out, there we are in the midst of

divorce right after Hurricane Katrina evacuations. So to say it was a lot going on was an understatement. We ended up staying together for about five years during that Katrina relocation, having to relocate again, all the while knowing we needed a divorce because we were planning to divorce before Katrina ever hit. So we kind of learned to master co-parenting

as parents living in the same house, doing all the things, having to rebuild lives, retake bar exams. He is an attorney as well. So it was a lot going on. doubt we had all kinds of problems as well. I don't mean to say we had it all right, but there was a lot of learning that went on in that process.

Then when I decided to do work as both a guardian ad litem and as a family law attorney, it was somewhat self-centered in that I was like, well, here I am in the midst of this whole thing. I'm having to learn, go to child development classes, read a hundred books on negotiation, on co-parenting, on,

how to handle your own stuff, so that it's not flowing over to your children. So I was doing all this work and I thought, why not combine my professional life and my personal life at the same time? And so that's how it really started. And I mean, I have been really passionate about the idea of putting children front and center rather than caught in the middle. And... ⁓

It has been a huge part of what I have tried to do for my own four children and continue to do even now that they're young adults. We have a very unique scenario. People who meet me and who know me well, know that I have a lot of interaction with my ex-husband currently our children are young adults, but they have

a lot of interaction with their dad because of actions my current husband and I have taken through the years.

Sol (03:36)
In a recent video, you said getting out of a bad marriage is one of the best things you can do for your children. And that really resonated with me. I'm curious if you could talk more about what that means and your perspective on divorce and why do some people have this belief that divorce is not good?

Elise Buie (03:56)
Well, that is a longer conversation than we probably have. I think there's patriarchal reasons, there's religious reasons, there's all kinds of reasons that people believe that by divorcing, they're somehow failing in every way. They're failing their parents' ideals, they're failing their own, they're failing their partner, they're failing their children. it's a lot of failing going on, in people's minds.

I have to tell you as somebody who didn't divorce until Year 18 of a marriage, when I probably should have divorced in Year 4 of that marriage, I held on for a long, long time thinking, in my family don't get divorced. I was the first person in my entire family ever to get a divorce.

I was definitely charting a new path, one that was not necessarily looked upon positively. I think I have come to understand that it the emotional intelligence and success of your children that matters, not whether you are living in one house. I mean, Living in two houses with

healthy parents in both houses is way better than a dysfunctional relationship in one house. But that's a lot for people to get over all those shoulds and woulds and the failings. For me, divorce was absolutely I am not even slightly the same person

in my house currently that I was in my house with my ex-husband. Yet I can see my ex-husband regularly and not have issues whatsoever.

Sol (05:40)
Yeah, we hear that a lot, from people that enter in divorce one way and then they exit divorce a completely changed person. It can rock your world and also be personally very transformative.

Elise Buie (05:53)
100%.

Sol (05:55)
Many of our listeners are dealing with what they might define as a toxic ex or a narcissist. They're dealing with gaslighting, controlling behavior, emotional abuse. What is your advice for someone who's realizing that whatever they're going through is not normal, but something more complicated?

Elise Buie (06:13)
Well, really educate yourself on those things: narcissism, gaslighting, toxic communication patterns, helping you to understand. I dealt with the same thing. And then I'm a firm believer in turning the mirror on myself and understanding what am I doing to

either continue that pattern, fall into the pattern, create more drama than I mean to because I'm trying to explain myself for the 12th time, whatever those things may be. And I probably did all of them wrong initially, every single one of them. But learning to step back, be able to ask yourself, hmm.

is what is happening true? Is my perception of reality real? And sometimes you can get some outside help on that. Ask somebody, neutral person, to read something and be like, was my tone negative? That maybe I'm not noticing it. But there's things you can do to turn that mirror, really figure out what you're doing to contribute. And maybe it's nothing, but

a lot of times, at least in my time for me, I was always doing something, that I could work on and get better at. And I think once I felt like I was able to really see those patterns for what they are, really see my own response and improve upon my responses as much as humanly possible. And then this part,

people probably don't want to hear this and it is likely controversial. actually got to a place, with, my current husband actually very much helped me. I was constantly in this battle around finances. My ex never paid me what he was supposed to pay me ever, ever, ever, not one time. My current husband said to me one day, you do realize this is never going to change

and either you're gonna continue to be angry every month or you're gonna figure out something else. And he's like, know, Whatever you decide, that's your choice, but he's like, the thought that it's gonna change is what you need to let go of. it really was a very profound moment. And in that moment, I literally said to myself, yeah, this is kind of crazy.

And I was like, Elise, you have to figure out how to earn circles around your ex. This is not a, this is gonna change, that's gonna change, I'm gonna go to the court and get them to help me or whatever. And so that's what I did. I learned to do that. I've done it consistently every day since that time. And it's a non-issue.

Sol (08:59)
I love how empowered you are in that, that you realized, no, I'm going to just focus on me. I'm going to focus on improving my own finances and not be in the power struggle. And that's you dropping the rope in that cool.

Elise Buie (09:12)
Totally.

Sol (09:14)
You mentioned about third parties and checking in on communication. As the founder of an AI co-parenting app, I have to ask, what are your thoughts on AI and can it help with this? Is it helpful? Have you seen it work?

Elise Buie (09:28)
I use AI myself, in situations and obviously now for me, it's not in a co-parenting realm, but I could have a client send me something that's, very hostile and accusatory and, all kinds of negative things. And so I have to do the same thing. Turn that mirror, but

part of that response is, how can you take what they're telling you? How can you take out those nuggets that are helpful, where you can maybe own some things that you've done wrong, that you could fix, that you could make some improvements on? And then how do you recommend things moving forward? And I would say AI is wildly helpful in that regard, helping you frame communication where it is not accusatory.

It is more neutral and it is less triggering. There's all kinds of ways, very simplistic ways of teaching yourself to write without using those words, the shoulds, the always, the never, it's like really, they never did this ever.

AI has changed the game in this regard. And I think the more people like you that are out there that are creating things that are helping co-parents realize how much control they really have on the conflict, because the conflict almost cannot exist when the other person isn't holding the rope.

Sol (10:57)
Totally. Yeah, it changes the game. And communication is so important. even that nuanced one word can make the difference and spiral out into a legal conflict.

Elise Buie (11:10)
and I'm a firm believer in trying to get people to really put themselves in the other person's shoes and understand their fears. I feel like so many people do not look at or their co-parent.

Even if that person, I mean, let's just pretend for a moment they are diagnosed a narcissist. You know, they are an actual narcissist. ⁓ Narcissists still have fears, you know, and lots of them. And ⁓ I mean, Shame just rules their world, trying to understand that and understand how what you're saying is just feeding into that and making it worse,

rather than learning to communicate in a way that takes out those accusations and that shame. And you can still get to the same place. Like maybe if you're trying to make a decision on something, but there's so much that can be learned. And I think there's just a lot out there where if we, the people who consider ourselves the non-narcissist types in this thing can learn

to really feel the pain of our partner, and really try to understand that. I think you can find ways to get to a win-win-win. And I think of a win-win-win as a win for you, a win for your partner, and a win for your child.

I just think it's an important thing to think about. And a lot of times people don't want to think about the pain of their partners. It's hard, because you could be being put through the wringer. And to try to stand in the shoes of that is not always easy. What I really wish is we had emotional intelligence hats that we could put on that could just

be our armor during this process because the more emotional intelligence a person has during the divorce process, it is so much easier, I think, for that process to become transformational rather than kind of traumatic or tragic even.

Sol (13:21)
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get 10 % off with code Beyond10. Link in the show notes.

Sol AI (13:44)
And now, back to the show.

Sol (13:45)
I love what you said about how, in many ways we can operate as the emotional leader in the relationship. you know, A lot of controlling behavior, the 'control over' behavior of that narcissist, it stems from a fear, a loss of the relationship, a loss of control.

And if you really sit down with that, you realize it's not that scary. Maybe it's a little annoying, but there's nothing really to fight against if you look at it that way. I know a lot of parents that when they're faced with the prospect of divorce, myself included, will go initially for this, gotta protect myself. I gotta hire the bulldog attorney.

They call around and find that most aggressive attorney in their area. What do you have to say for those people?

Elise Buie (14:38)
One, I think it's the saddest thing. Two, I think it speaks volumes, unfortunately, about the parent who's doing that. That's where I think that emotional intelligence hat would really come in handy because a lot of times the parent that goes to that mindset needs exactly the opposite, really, because they need someone to help them understand how to regulate some of that fear,

how to not see everything as an attack, how to understand the fear on the other side, and really help them navigate that. This is a thing that comes up constantly, and people will ask me, when I do consults, when I meet with people, they'll be like, well, will you aggressive enough to blah, blah, blah? I am never going to be aggressive gratuitously, ever.

Like That's just not who I am. It's not what is best for these people's children, nor is it best for them to only see a model of aggression between attorneys. The thing that I find, it's comical in a kind of satirist way, but when you see attorneys that are both bulldogs, they are relentless, they're filing things constantly, they're sending each other snarky emails

and all this communication is being sent out to their clients. They're sending them later or whatever, but the clients are reading this. And I'm thinking, well, we're doing a splendid job here of teaching conflict resolution, like yay us. I mean, it's ridiculous what we do. And I say we, mean, the legal profession as a whole, it is something that I firmly believe it is one of our duties

to not do that, to be able to treat each other respectfully, professionally, to write to the court in respectful, professional ways, to put things in declarations in the court that are professional and respectful, that we're not stretching the truth, we're not jumping in all these logical games that we've jumped over like four steps to get to some conclusion.

I think it's critical for parents to understand that these court documents are open and they're not sealed for the most part. Kids get their hands on them all the time. I have interviewed hundreds of children in my career as a guardian of litem and I cannot tell you how many children have popped out their divorce documents that they have gotten online.

Sol (17:18)
Wow.

Elise Buie (17:18)
It is wild the damage that that can do to children when they see these absolutely outlandish, hateful declarations being filed. And we attorneys have to own that. we have to advise our clients. We have to be talking to them about ways that they can reach resolution outside of court

where these things are not just put out there. And yeah, I have a lot to say about the pit bull attorney.

Sol (17:51)
I mean, it's literally an advertising term for many of these attorneys.

Elise Buie (17:54)
⁓ A hundred percent, which is, it's scary and it's real though. There are people that will interview with me and, it'll be clear to me, they're not a good fit. They are looking for, almost like a psychopath. They don't care what they're blowing up. And I call it throwing hand grenades into families.

They are fine doing it and they will just happily do it. And I mean, there are people in our area in Seattle who I consider hand grenade attorneys. It's so bad, but it's so true that some people can't see

what they're doing. I actually just got a letter recently from somebody who's like, "you I consulted with you two years ago. You sent me to this hand grenade attorney, it was the biggest mistake for me to do that." And I was like, huh.

Now that is fascinating.

Sol (18:50)
You give up lot of control sometimes when you are the client to an attorney that is the expert, right? And if they can themselves create conflict that wasn't even there in the first place, it's dangerous. Yeah. Yeah. And expensive.

Elise Buie (19:04)
very dangerous.

just bad for your children.

Sol (19:10)
Yeah, yeah. I really appreciate talking with you about this. I'm curious, if you have a client that comes to you and their co-parent is represented by one of those attorneys, do you take the case or do you say...

Elise Buie (19:25)
It depends on a few things. One, does the person who's coming to me understand the cost that is going to be involved with having a hand grenade thrower on the other side? Do they understand and can they handle that? Because this is not going to be inexpensive to pull that hand grenade off this plan. Sometimes it can happen though. There are attorneys for sure

that are way more aggressive. And I find having a few good conversations, and sitting down and being like, come on, let's actually look at what these people need. What are we really trying to accomplish here? Can we lower the volume on all things and can we put our hand grenades away? You know, can we actually store them away? So we're not gonna use them in this case.

And I find some attorneys will respond, and they will kind of tone it down. There's just really a few attorneys that I will not take the case at all. We will refer them out because either I've tried times, and I just feel like there's no reasoning on the other side. We just won't work with that.

Sol (20:42)
hard to work with that.

Now switching gears for a moment, I know you talk a lot about leading with heart, even in these difficult moments. What does that actually look like for you in the divorce process and what is being a bigger person look like?

Elise Buie (20:57)
Well, when I think of leading with heart as a divorce attorney, it looks like, me as the attorney, it is my job to not only lead my team in my office well, so that, you know, that my paralegals, legal assistants, whoever I'm in contact with, so that they are, doing well, they are bringing their best selves as well to the work we do, because the work we do is hard. I mean, it is a lot of vicarious trauma.

You know, and so Acknowledging that, making sure our team is well rested, that they have reasonable caseloads, that they have good, good support in place, that we have good systems in place so that when they're off, anyone can step in and help that client. And that attorney knows that that client is going to be well served 24/7. So they're not stressing when they're off. They're really able to rejuvenate.

And that is an important part, from a team standpoint. But then also when you think of leading, you are leading these families through a very difficult time. And so that means, how are you providing holistic resources to a client? Clients don't just need lawyers. I'm a firm believer in clients need counselors.

They need often a life coach. They often need some financial guidance. They might need some vocational rehabilitation, like how can they get back to work? They likely need some child-related things because many times these parents have wildly different parenting styles. And teaching people more about child development so they can understand, these parenting styles

are they real differences where your children might be psychologically harmed in some way? Some things matter a lot more than others and helping parents understand

how child development and all the things you need to understand so that they cannot be jumping on every bandwagon that they could get mad about. Do you know what I mean?

Sol (23:02)
Totally. Well, and I love that you talk about building that team, right? Having a coach, having a therapist, having extra support that's beyond just your attorney.

Elise Buie (23:14)
All those people are cheaper than your lawyer, for sure. When people call me so much of the time, I really feel they want me to be their life coach. I'm like, look, you could pay somebody way less per hour than you're paying me. When it's a therapist, I'm like, you have health insurance. Use your health insurance for that. you do not have Elise insurance.

Really helping them go to the right expert based on what they need. I was working with somebody recently and she had all these financial questions because she has a disabled child. So there's all this issue around, special needs trusts and long-term care. We have experts for that. That is where we need to dig in and look to those experts because

it not only takes a village to raise a family, it takes a village when you're breaking up a family too.

Sol (24:03)
I hear this a lot from listeners and in my own experience as well, approaching divorce sometimes is the first time anyone ever gets to a place where they find therapy. I didn't know that I needed to go see a therapist prior to any of that. And so the first thing I thought is, well, I need to get an attorney. I didn't think about a therapist, but it was really the therapist that helped the most.

Elise Buie (24:27)
Yeah.

They're kind of game changing.

Sol (24:31)
You talk a lot about emotional safety on your Instagram. Could you tell us more about what that means and how co-parents can cultivate that during their divorce?

Elise Buie (24:41)
Again, it's gonna depend on both parties. Are you dealing with somebody who is actually toxic? Are you dealing with somebody who's got violent tendencies? That is a completely different ball game. But I mean, one thing that when we talk about resources and emotional safety, Somebody like a divorce coach or a co-parenting coach,

where you can sit with somebody, whether it's on Zoom, whether it's in person, like, you know, that's just kind of a, just depends on what works best, but ⁓ where you can have a third party help you work through some of the very difficult conversations you might need, as you build this muscle, you will learn to become yourself more emotionally safe,

you realize emotional safety in your co-parenting relationship makes the relationship better, thus it protects your children. If you can always look at that flow to your child and what are you doing and what are the impacts on your child? and asking yourself that over and over again.

My ultimate goal is that children who go through divorce are not traumatized by the process. That they go through divorce and they're like, huh, my parents didn't get along well. Look at this now, here we are.

Mom's got some good boundaries over here. She's doing fine. Dad's doing great. He's stepping up. We have great times with dad. He is super engaged and life is good. They have two houses, but life is good and the conflict is not just their ever present thing.

Sol (26:23)
Yeah, that's leading with heart right there. Is there a moment in your work that's really stuck with you?

Elise Buie (26:25)
Yeah.

Obviously I've seen some really horrendous things, but I would say for me is it's the good that has stuck with me and it's personal in that it's my own situation, being able to go from being in a very

difficult, unhealthy, scary, financially difficult, just mess, to really learning how I could handle it, how I can fix myself, not spend all that time blaming and putting my finger like, this is his fault, his fault, his fault. I was like, okay, Elise, what can you fix? What is your fault? I pulled that mirror out, constantly. And it really changed

everything. It changed my children's well-being. It changed my well-being. It turned me from being a look what's happening to me to look at all these opportunities I have to fix things and to actually improve the situation. I mean I am almost plain grateful for what I went through.

Sol (27:35)
That's great. I know that a lot of our listeners who are co-parents, many of them are struggling. And I'm curious if there is something you'd like them to take away from our conversation today, one thing, what would it be?

Elise Buie (27:47)
Well, that struggling is 100 % normal and getting help with that struggle, like kind of pinpointing what the struggle is. Is it communication? Could you use a system like you have and utilize better communication skills? Is it decision-making? and are you all struggling in making decisions?

Where can you get help? I think we often think we have to do it alone and we have to fix it alone. And we do not. I have seen and participated in some of the most creative solutions to some of the most entrenched conflict. by utilizing other resources, even like an executive assistant.

to read every single one of the EAs, every single one of the emails that's coming in, you're not even reading it first. Somebody else is reading it and they are rewriting it in their language so that it's not gonna trigger you. There are things that can be done to stop the struggle. I think looking outside, figuring out, really what is the most impactful,

Sol (28:46)
Totally, yeah.

Elise Buie (28:57)
struggle you're having and how can you solve that and not so much how can you solve it, but who can help you solve it? There's a book, called Who Not How, it's usually used in business. When you're faced with a problem, you ask yourself who not how can help you, rather than putting it all on yourself as how can you fix this because

we just can't fix Learning to delegate what you can, even in your co-parenting relationship. It might sound a little crazy, but I have to tell you, I have watched some wild things be transformed through really creative problem solving.

Sol (29:39)
I love that. We'll put Who Not How in the show notes. Are there any other resources that you would suggest for co-parents to take a look at?

Elise Buie (29:46)
I always recommend the Co-Parenting Handbook by Karen Bonnell. I think of it as the guide of what is the gold standard in co-parenting. So even in the worst case, I want people to read the book so they know what they're working towards. What are you trying to get towards? And Karen's book, The Stepfamily Handbook, because that is when so much conflict just

heats up is the minute a new partner gets involved. So helping people understand that dynamic before it happens is wildly helpful. And I always recommend any of Bill Eddy's understanding the BIFF method and just anything he has to say about high conflict work. I think he is a real expert in understanding high conflict dynamics.

Sol (30:38)
Totally, Bill, if you're listening, we'd love to have you on the podcast.

Elise Buie (30:41)
Oh yeah, for sure.

Sol (30:42)
⁓ So Elise before we end this interview, I know you have some great content on Instagram. How else can people reach out to you connect with you and learn more about your work?

Elise Buie (30:54)
I mean, My email address, is elisb@elisbuiefamilylaw.com. We do have lots of resources on social media, but also on our firm website. And we're constantly building more resources because I really feel like there's almost endless education that we could do in this area.

And I mean, You think of the millions and millions and millions of families that are impacted by divorce. I just think we cannot talk about this enough. We cannot educate people enough in this because if we could take the conflict out of divorce, that real high conflict, and you know what I'm talking about, that just toxic, toxic conflict. Imagine the impact that would have on children.

Sol (31:43)
Well, and generationally too. These are generational wounds. Even going back to earlier in the interview, you're talking about being the first of your family to go through the divorce. It doesn't mean that there was no conflict or challenge prior, right? It just means that maybe people weren't willing or able to do what you ended up doing.

Elise Buie (31:49)
We're.

Absolutely. Women historically couldn't divorce as easily. There was rules in different states of fault and, different things that really limited it. And obviously then just the finances. Women couldn't get their own bank accounts until fairly recently.

So there's been a lot, but it's interesting to see what's happening. I I think less and less people are actually getting married. And I don't know the exact stats on it, but I do think the stats would support what I'm saying that a lot of women in particular are choosing not to I think they are concerned about a lot of things that, ⁓

likely comes from that generational stuff they've seen. It's almost like I think of it as a public health issue.

Sol (32:51)
Yeah. Well, this is a bit of a tangent, but I've always been curious after having gone through divorce, why is it that to get married, you sign on the dotted line and that's it, right? Usually. And then to get divorced, it's years potentially of extremely expensive and challenging negotiations. Why aren't we doing that upfront?

Elise Buie (33:16)
Completely. Well, I mean, I'm a huge fan of a prenup, helping people talk through these issues.

You don't think about all the reality of what it means if you're going to give up your career for a decade. If you're going to stay home, how are you deciding that? Who should stay home? Because I look back now and on retrospect, I was on a very fast track to be a partner in a big firm and do well.

My husband definitely struggled more and he was a lawyer as I chose to stay home because I thought it would help his ego. Like, cause I thought it would be hard for him to watch my career really accelerate and his to not. It was a decision we made. I stayed home for a decade and then was supposed to look to him for spousal maintenance because I hadn't worked for

10 years and he had been working and earning and yes, the court awarded it, but he didn't pay it. Then it became this whole issue of, mean, I shouldn't probably have been the one that stayed home. It might've made more sense the other way, but we didn't have any agreement in place, any thought. But if we had had a prenup and had those discussions.

really helpful to just have those discussions. And I think you bring up an amazing point of, we just show up and get a license. mean, usually pay like 50 bucks and that's it.

Sol (34:41)
Yeah, it's almost like we don't want to have a discussion or even contemplate the possibility that this thing might end. But obviously the stats show that it often does. So let's have those discussions upfront. Yeah.

Elise Buie (34:55)
Absolutely. Let's discuss

all the things.

Sol (34:59)
Yeah, Elise I've really enjoyed our conversation today. Thanks so much for being on the podcast.

Elise Buie (35:03)
Yeah, well, thank you for having me and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

Sol (35:08)
Thanks for joining us on the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. To support our show, subscribe or leave a rating. Links for all books and resources mentioned on appear in our show notes or on CoparentingBeyondConflict.com. See you next time.

Sol (35:25)
The commentary and opinions available on this podcast are for informational and entertainment purposes only, and not for the purpose of providing legal or psychological advice. You should contact a licensed attorney, coach, or therapist in your state to obtain advice with respect to any particular issue or problem.