Sol (00:01)
Welcome to Coparenting Beyond Conflict. I'm your host, Sol. Today I'm joined by Todd Sarner, a licensed marriage and family therapist and the founder of Transformative Parenting. Todd brings over two decades of experience helping parents stay grounded in the hardest moments. What I love about Todd's approach is how he reframes the fears so many parents carry, that nagging question, am I screwing up my child? Instead of perfection, he shows us

why repair, consistency, and secure attachment are the true markers of resilience. In our conversation, we dive into the challenges of parallel parenting, why transitions spark so much conflict, and how to stop walking on eggshells and start leading your kids with calm, confident presence. This is an episode about hope, about shifting the family dynamic, even when your co-parent won't meet you halfway. Let's dive in.

Sol (00:49)
Hi Todd, welcome to Coparenting Beyond Conflict.

Todd Sarner, MFT (00:51)
It's really good to be here and thanks for the invite.

Sol (00:54)
It's so nice to have you. Thanks for being on. I understand that you originally got started working with children and that you realized over time that actually working with parents, you'd get more leverage. And I'm curious about that shift and if there was an 'aha' moment that took you there.

Todd Sarner, MFT (01:01)
Yeah.

Before I really decided to go into therapy as a parenting coach and as a marriage counselor,

I worked in group homes and I worked a boys group home. And really what I had in mind, my entire education was working with kids. And there was something about the combination of meeting my mentor

Neufeld, combination of becoming a father myself and working with Dr. Neufeld, whose message was just really strongly that you are the answer for your children. And it's not that I'm opposed to therapy for children. That's not the message I'm trying to send.

It just, as a dad myself, I was like thinking, wait, I wanna be his answer. I wanna be the one there for him. I want me and his mom-- I want us to be the ones. And so I kind of made this shift, and Dr. Neufeld was a big influence, to wanting to be more the support for the parents. And so the two pathways I developed there was the transformative parenting process, a coaching relationship

that I have with people that first used to be just one-on-one only and now I do in small groups. And then on the other hand, becoming an attachment-based couples therapist based on some of my influences there. And the goal is I wanna help the kids still. I wanna help them have a better experience. I want them to have a ⁓ stronger...

a secure base, stronger sense of themselves, and I want them to live their full potentials, but I wanna do it by being a helper for the parents, not being their answer myself. Does that make sense?

Sol (02:39)
It resonates so deeply. My other job is running a startup that supports co-parents navigating high conflict situations with an app. And my reasoning for starting there is that if you help a co-parent be a better co-parent, be able to be more present with their kids, then you're having lasting impacts and ripple effects in these kids' lives.

Todd Sarner, MFT (03:02)
Of course, you know, I've worked with thousands of families

working with parents who are either going through it right now or they're coming out the other side of it, I know the impacts on the parents. I know the impacts on the kids. Being the child to divorce myself,

and kind of a high conflict situation. I know how it affected me. And I wanted to have this conversation because I think the effects that it has on children and their secure base on their sense of self on their attachment has ripple effects for a long time. And so anything we can do to support parents

in being that answer for their children even in the midst of a really, really difficult situation for everyone.

Sol (03:43)
Yeah, Todd, just on a more personal note, I hear that you too are a, pardon the term, a "product of divorce." It is so powerful to come from a place of "I've been there and I want to help others that are going through it or helping their kids."

Todd Sarner, MFT (04:01)
Yeah, for me, I was about 13 when my parents divorced and I love my dad, he's no longer with us. I love my mom.

It's been a long time, but ⁓ they just didn't do that well. They were so mad at each other and so dysregulated.

A family court judge said you guys are burning down the house here.

These kids need help. Put them in therapy, make sure they're okay. I went and I loved it.

I just loved going to those sessions. It just felt safe and he talked to me and seemed genuinely interested

in my experience. And yeah, that's where it started. It was going through that myself

seeing what I saw of my parents doing it unskillfully, and knowing how it affected me and, I just felt really alone.

Wanting to help kids, I don't only help high conflict divorce parents, but they're present in my practice. It's good work, it's hard work. But my goal is to have compassion for those parents

and to help them get past the upset and the dysregulation and the coming apart and their own grief process so they can be as present for their kids as they can be.

Sol (05:13)
That's great. The way you describe your experience, it makes me think that for children, you might be protecting your kids from some of the overt conflict. Obviously, they're not joining you into the courtroom. But kids are very perceptive, and they're picking up on it. They can even just feel it. Even if you're not saying anything, they're like, hmm. And it's uncomfortable, because it's not talked about.

Todd Sarner, MFT (05:30)
Yeah. Yeah.

I talk about those cues all the time. At younger ages, especially, kids are watching your body language.

They're watching how you're talking. Do they see you with a stern look on your face or a looking askew? They notice that and it is sending them signals. They're noticing those signals, that body language.

My main lens that I do my work through is that of attachment.

Kids have a strong inborn instinct to hold close and to keep close those that they hold most dear. That's Dr. Neufeld's language. What that means is the emotional psychological bond that a child feels with both parents

is so deep, it's also survival. And a child is constantly pinging, "are you there? Is it okay to connect to you?" Right? And that's a lot of what the attachment system is.

One of the main problems in divorce is they're getting mixed signals sometimes. It's not okay to be close to that parent. It leads to so many different, competing instincts and sometimes shutting down to protect

oneself or sometimes aligning with one parent and cutting out the other parent. A child can't handle the different instincts. It's, "if I'm close with you, it's harming you. I'm just going to pick one of you."

And all those things is where my concern is.

Sol (06:55)
You're touching on parental alienation, right? And we've done an episode with Amy Baker on that topic was very informative. It can be very painful. There are so many things that are going through our heads as parents every day: judgments, concerns, fears that we're trying to hold tight so our kids don't

Todd Sarner, MFT (07:01)
know Amy. I've had a few

Sol (07:13)
figure out what we're thinking, but they can pick up on it. That informs then their attachment system, and it informs the way that they're able to navigate successfully or unsuccessfully their life.

Todd Sarner, MFT (07:21)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Amy's done some good work out there. There's controversy out there about the term parental alienation because it's not a diagnosis. In my book, it's a little similar to Stockholm The FBI says one out of five people who are taken captive have some form of Stockholm Syndrome, they start aligning with their captor,

People just use that term and it's not controversial, but Stockholm Syndrome is not a diagnosis. It doesn't exist in the DSM. Same with parental alienation. People are fighting over that term, but it's leaving kids in the crossfire a little bit, and spouses.

Because of the attachment instincts, a child is indoctrinated into a mindset and then they believe that mindset is true. be a child custody issue, it should be a mental health issue. So anyway, just because you brought up the term, every time somebody brings up the term,

it leads to comments like "that doesn't exist." There's no disagreement in the psychological community about, children side with one parent out of an attachment conflict after divorce. That's not controversial. And if we believe that children need both parents,

that they need to be able to healthily attach to both parents, well then we want to solve that problem and we don't worry about what we call it.

Sol (08:43)
And I think a lot of our listeners probably have heard the term secure attachment, maybe even in relationship advice, a secure attachment with your partner. And that will map out to, more directly, a parent-child relationship.

How can you assess that? What can you do to improve that relationship, that security?

Todd Sarner, MFT (09:01)
I would answer it in two parts. I would define a little bit about what secure attachment means. And then I would talk about like how we achieve it. Secure attachment is misunderstood,

and one of the things to understand is secure attachment or insecure attachment and the two main kinds of insecure attachment, which we say insecure-avoidant and insecure-anxious. These are not diagnoses. The best way of understanding them is that they're strategies. A lot of the human experience

is, how do we learn to navigate the comings and goings and connection and disconnection between people? If you matter to me, I am born completely insecure about whether you're even existing when you leave the room. That's how we're born: object permanence. And I have to learn over time

that you're there for me, that when I reach out, when I'm cold, I'm scared, I'm tired, I'm overwhelmed, I feel like I'm too much, I feel like I'm not enough, that I get an answer that's not perfect all the time, but in general, I get the are loved, you are not too much, you are okay the way you are." Make sense?

What secure attachment is--

Mary Ainsworth and John Bowlby came up with these terms.

kid is upset. Being upset is okay. But then if you comfort him, if you reassure him, if you tell him it's gonna be okay and we're sorry, we feel bad about it, and you calm and you comfort and you soothe.

A natural progression might be that that kid feels heard, feels understood, feels mirrored, feels their emotions, cries, gets it out, has a big emotional release, and then the kid's okay. That's secure attachment. It's not the absence of upset. It's not the absence of tension or conflict. It's that we can navigate through it and I can find you again.

to me is what secure attachment is. But if I can't, I might've developed a style and I'm like, ⁓ "you're here? All right, doesn't matter." We call that defensive detachment. It doesn't mean you don't care. It means caring hurts. So you shut down the instinct to care. A major, major factor in divorce.

But that's not how the child really feels. That's how the child's trying to navigate it. And the other insecure style is anxious.

The kid won't let you leave the room because they're so anxious. To answer your second question, which I alluded to with my thing about when kids come to you, am I enough? I too much? Am I, you know, I'm sick, I'm scared.

It takes thousands of reps. It's not just I'm a good parent so therefore my kid's secure.

It takes thousands of reps over time of "I'm there for you." And when I make a mistake, I try to correct it. And if something really big keeps coming up over and over again, I try to really notice that and key into it.

If we bring that back to the divorce situation, we see how it can be potentially the opposite. It could be getting the wrong kind of reps. It could be getting the wrong kind of signals. It can sometimes make a child feel kind of frozen in time in terms of certain security development.

Sol (12:03)
What's bringing to mind is this cultural belief that divorce is the thing that screws up kids. Maybe speak to that.

Todd Sarner, MFT (12:09)
it's just not true.

If you truly cannot get along with this person, if you're truly not meant for each other, if you feel in your heart that you did what you could do to try to see if you could resolve it, that's not my decision or anyone's decision but you.

But if you're in a situation that is not healthy for you, that's not healthy for your kids. And if you're in a situation that's conflictual in the house, that's not good for your kids either.

Having kids is not a reason you have to stay together but a lot of times it's a motivation to try to figure if you can figure it out.

I'm thinking of one family in particular.

They tried and they tried and this couple just couldn't figure it out. They just decided square peg round hole, we don't fit. And every once in a while, this couple, they call me with a developmental issue about their now teenage son. And the Zoom is me and them and their two new partners. And everybody communicates well.

Everybody appreciates each other. Everybody's respectful. I can't tell you how happy that makes me. You know, that's possible. That's not screwing up that kid.

I don't blame people for having a difficult time with it.

But it's really important that you deal with your stuff, that you deal with it not in front of your kids, that you work out what needs to be worked out with them, that you get help like a mediator or somebody. But no, divorce doesn't screw up kids by itself.

There's a lot of kids that are having a worse experience with an "intact" family, It depends how you're processing things, how you're communicating, how you're meeting your child's needs. It's not primarily that you divorced or not.

Sol (13:36)
Totally. Yeah.

Sol (13:45)
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get 10 % off with code Beyond10. Link in the show notes.

Sol AI (14:08)
And now, back to the show.

Sol (14:09)
I know for a lot of co-parents, handoffs and transitions are hotspots in their co-parenting.

Todd Sarner, MFT (14:15)
They are, and they end up

arguing with each other about it, and they end up blaming each other about it.

And from an attachment perspective, the thing to understand is kids have a hard time attaching to two people at the same time,

it's especially true for young children, but it really can be true for older children in tweens and teens that they have a hard time, especially in divorce, knowing is it okay? Can I attach to you and attach to you at the same time? Am I sending a loyalty conflict signal to one of you? And sometimes there's one parent,

feels so hurt and so wounded, might have their own emotional issues that they play victim a little bit with the child, which makes the child feel they have to move to the protective position of that parent.

What is usually happening in those transition times, they have to

give their attachment energy to the parent they're with as much as they can. I'm with dad this weekend, let's just say it that way, and I'm really, really attached to dad and I'm connected with him and I've missed him all week.

And so I'm really with dad. it's time for me to go back to mom, I pull back my attachment energy and I don't necessarily have it back to give to mom. And so I have that transition period. It's more obvious sometimes the other way. I'm with mom all week.

I'm getting along with mom, but I know Friday night dad's going to come and get me. I start withdrawing my attachment energy from mom to prepare to give it to dad. Mom sees: "my kid is grumpy on Friday. My kid is a pain in the butt on Thursday night.

It must be something his dad's doing." and then the parents end up fighting with each other about it. "He's always fine all week and then he gets like a pain in the butt when it's time for you to come. What is going on?"

Or "when you bring him back, he's really cold and he's really distant. What happened?" It doesn't necessarily have to do with what was happening at that house. It often has to do with this attachment dynamic and the child's loyalty conflict. One of my main messages of today is it's really our responsibility to do everything we can

to make it okay for your child to attach to you and to the other.

We have to minimize that attachment loyalty conflict because that's what affects children. I talk to adults that are having conflicts in their marriage, they're in marriage counseling,

and these issues, they're dealing with them 30 years later.

Sol (16:46)
I wanted to underline this point that you made I'm hearing you normalize, that transitions are challenging for kids regardless of the circumstance. And that doesn't make it bad that, you know, this is the situation.

Todd Sarner, MFT (16:55)
Positive. Yes. Transitions are hard for...

Sol (17:00)
And yet I see this a lot, that a co-parent will then start making assumptions about what's going on, my co-parent's doing this, well, and then that causes additional conflict. The peace keeping message here is that transitions often are a day of tantrum or lots of energy or challenge, and that's okay.

Todd Sarner, MFT (17:19)
or withdraw,

I would just say if you're seeing it, please try to do something about it if it's a consistent thing.

If you're pointing the finger at the other person, you're probably getting nothing done.

When you're saying "you do this" and "you do that" and I'm ascribing motivation to you, I defy you to show me a time where the other person went "You know what? You're totally right. I am going to correct that behavior right now." So if instead

we can use more 'we' language and 'our child' language and "hey, I'm noticing it's really hard on our child to do transitions. I know you're a good dad. What can we do together to try to lessen that for them? I think it's hard for them." If you get a bad reaction to that, it could happen a little bit if you've been in a conflictual place. But if you're in a normal place or you're working in the right place or you're persistent with this,

and you get a bad reaction, there's not a lot you can do other than maybe get somebody else involved and just keep persisting, you know? But in general, as a couples counselor and somebody who's worked with a lot of high conflict and everywhere in between conflict couples, I've noticed it actually works most of the time. And again, maybe you need to persist for a week or two or three months.

If you persist in that approach, that is your best shot. "How about we work on this together? Hey, I know you're trying your best. I'm trying my best. I've noticed it's hard for our kid. What can we do together to figure this out? What are your opinions?"

The polarization thing that I mentioned, what tends to happen is, and let's just start with intact families. One parent, often the mom, not always, and I say this all the time.

We'll see a problem happening and we'll go, "hey, I think this kid needs more attention. I think we've been distracted. I think we've been busy. I think we're on our phones. I would like us to maybe put more attention on," right? And then the other parents, sometimes the dad, not always, but the other parent has the attitude of "they need more boundaries. We're letting them get away with too much. They need to be told no sometime."

They might both have some aspect of the truth that they're holding. Because neither one of them is wrong. Kids do need attachment. I would just say that's first. They need connection. They need reliable attachment. They need to know you're there. They need you to help them with separation anxiety. They need you to get who they are. That's first. Because if we don't think a person cares about us or gets us, we don't care about what they say.

Right? So attachment comes first. But they do also need consequences. They do also need boundaries. But I don't yell and scream and punish with those things. I do them in the way I described before. Both parents are holding an aspect of the truth. But in an intact family, what I see all the time is they polarize. "I don't feel you're listening to me about they need more connection." "I don't feel you're listening to me about they need more

limits or boundaries." And I get more and more entrenched in my position and I'm not considering yours. What we need to do is find a path. And so obviously what I'm trying to say with this is how much worse can this be in couples that have come apart in divorcing families, right?

It can get much, much worse. The underlying principles are still the same. If we can find a way or find somebody to help us communicate a way, where it's like, "you are right. I know they need boundaries. I know they need limits. I would just argue that we need to do in a kind, consistent, firm way. So I suggest that we get on the same page with that. But in the meantime, you're their dad and they love you. And all I was trying to say is I think they just need more of us.

and that's me and you." Now, there's not a lot of arguments for that approach. Does that make sense? It doesn't mean the other person's gonna be a fair actor every time, but there's not a lot of like, no, right? But if you throw an accusation, if you ascribe motivation, that's all you're gonna get. And the polarization just gets worse.

Sol (20:59)
Yeah, for sure.

Another experience that's related to this of course is during exchanges, a parent notices that their child is clinging to them or clinging to their co-parent,

refusing to make the exchange and that can be very emotional, whether which direction it is. What's the best way to handle this type of behavior?

Todd Sarner, MFT (21:32)
Well, the big picture is what I talk about in the attachment and connection realm: Kids need to be collected. They need you to not take for granted that they feel connected to you. When they come back to you after school or after being in the backyard for a while or being at mommy's house,

they need you to get down in their space. They need you to get their eyes and their smile and their nod. And they need you to kind of get that registration. Like, "I got you, you're mine, we're back." That feeling, they need that. So if you're the parent they're coming back to, you need to do that. You don't just go, "hey, you guys are late" and you're mad at the other one and "we have to get going," right?

Pause, take time, collect the child. Secondly, they need bridging, which is what Dr. Neufeld calls it. They need help holding on when apart. So ideally the ex couple would work together on this. When they're at my house, it's okay for them to bring that bracelet you gave them. It's okay for them to have a picture of me. I might not have you call every single day

but if the child really needs you, obviously I'm gonna let them talk to you. That's bridging. The things that we do to help someone hold on when apart. It's why in most places in the world, you're not supposed to say goodbye. You say hasta mañana, I'll see you tomorrow. Au revoir, auf wiedersehen, I'll see you on return.

Kids need you to build a culture where you're helping them emotionally with your words, with your body language. "I will be here when you get back and I'll be thinking of you when you're gone."

And then the third aspect of that is matchmaking. I tried to do this so much with my son and his mom. I recommend it to people. You say good things about the other parent. You say "they're such a good mom and they miss you when you're gone." And "I'm sure glad you have that person as your daddy," you know? And again, if you're currently in a high conflict thing,

I understand how aspirational and otherworldly that can sound, but we're trying as much as we can to do things like that for the kid's sake. Even if it's not effusive, it's like, "your mom probably misses you. She loves you so much." That's not a lie. That's matchmaking. So my big picture to your answer is that's the culture we're building,

we're collecting, we're bridging, we're matchmaking. We're doing those things effortlessly, not because it's a technique I learned in a book, it's because it's the culture. That's what we do. And if we can get to a place or aspire to that place, that's the best, okay? But yeah.

Sol (24:01)
When you're talking about allowing

the child to have their own independent relationship with their mother or father, regardless of your relationship with them, which is healthy.

Todd Sarner, MFT (24:12)
Yeah, it's psychological. It's emotional, but it's also survival. The bond between a parent and child is so deep. worked with hundreds of abused children.

When I worked in group homes with kids who had been removed from their home I would strain to remember an abused child who didn't want to be with their parent. It's built in. These kids in the group home whose parents were just

Sol (24:31)
built in.

Todd Sarner, MFT (24:35)
in a hell realm, abusive, doing the most awful things. Those kids all wanted to be with their parent, all of them. That's how strong the attachment bond is. If we understand it is psychological, it's emotional, it's also a sense that "I'm afraid I don't exist

without being able to have access to my parent" or that I'm not safe. We have to do everything we can to protect that and make that okay for the child because it's not just about being nice. It's about their sense of being and their sense of safety in the world. It's that.

Sol (25:09)
Mm-hmm.

Now, speaking to co-parent who's listening today and well, they're struggling with their co-parenting relationship and maybe feeling like they're doing the wrong thing. What's one single transformative action that they could take this week that would begin to change the dynamic that they're experiencing?

Todd Sarner, MFT (25:27)
I would you can do

to be on a path of understanding what happened, of healing yourself, of regulating yourself, of not making it about the other person, about making it about your health and you being a reliable safe landing spot for your child, that is gold.

I remember reading, after relationship break after grad school and it was called Spiritual Divorce by Debbie Ford. And I really appreciated that book for how it invited you to look inside and to journal and to work through the feelings.

I don't know of a lot of things that are more painful to human beings than divorce or a breakup. I know some of the most painful experiences in my entire life had to do with a breakup. I think it brings up not only the ending of that relationship, but it brings up a whole neuro pathway river of loss and incomplete

emotions and unfelt and unresolved emotions. So Every single thing you can do to put your effort on that-- and journaling is one of the best things you can do. Piece of paper, pen, there's so many studies about this, it's ridiculous. And you just don't edit, don't be nice, write it, just get it out. Pennebaker has some great books

on this. Daniel Siegel, Parenting from the Inside Out, has some good stuff. But just get it all out. If you can go to a good professional who you trust, who's a good guide, who can help you, and who has experience in these matters, but self-care and self-transformation and self-healing is the number one thing.

Sol (27:06)
That's great. Todd, for those who are listening who would like to connect with you, learn more about Transformative Parenting and the rest of your work, what is the best way for them to reach you?

Todd Sarner, MFT (27:16)
The simplest way is going to the website TransformativeParenting.com, it's a good resource because it has our newsletter. I put out an article once a week to the newsletter trying to be as helpful and informative as possible sometimes it has high conflict

or divorce ⁓ topics in there. I have the same version of it on LinkedIn, which is under my name, Todd Sarner. My YouTube channel is something I'm really proud of. I've put a lot of effort into it. I don't get anything from the YouTube channel. It's just a labor of love to answer a lot of the questions people ask me. So going over there and subscribing ⁓ to Transformative Parenting with Todd, that's the best way. The website, the YouTube channel, and the socials are all on there.

people want to work directly or have questions, just shoot me an email. Send me a message through the site. and I try to get back to everybody as soon as I can.

Sol (28:04)
Great, we'll put all those in the show notes. And now if we have a moment, I'd like to do our lightning round. So we're just going get some quick takeaways for our listeners. First, what is the most important thing or powerful thing

Todd Sarner, MFT (28:10)
Okay. know about the lightning.

Sol (28:18)
that a parent can say to a child after a disagreement?

Todd Sarner, MFT (28:21)
"I love you and even if we fight, it's all going to be okay."

Sol (28:25)
What is the biggest myth about co-parenting?

Todd Sarner, MFT (28:29)
That you always have to like the other person or agree with the other person. I don't need to agree with you to empathize with your experience and so trying to focus on empathy is beneficial for you and your children and maybe even your ex.

Sol (28:44)
Love it. The most important rule to throw out of the co-parenting rule book is...

Todd Sarner, MFT (28:50)
"There's one right way to do things." There isn't one right way to do things. You take your situation, your family and your kids, and you figure out what's best for your system. Because even if you're broken up, you're still a system. You should put most of your effort into

figuring out what's right for your system and one one size fits all solutions that you find on a blog or something usually don't apply to your family.

Sol (29:17)
A child's biggest secret fear in a co-parenting situation is...

Todd Sarner, MFT (29:22)
"I can't love both of you."

Sol (29:23)
The most valuable asset a co-parent can bring to the relationship is not their money, but their...

Todd Sarner, MFT (29:29)
deep willingness to understand their experience. Cultivate a deep presence with the child, not all day, every day, but the ability to actually understanding their experience

and what they're going through and how they see things and asking them questions about it and being curious. Empathy, understanding.

Trying to understand even if you don't totally agree with their perspective because sometimes we won't, but that we try really, really hard to understand where they're coming from and how they see things.

Sol (29:59)
One thing I wish every co-parent knew about their child...

Todd Sarner, MFT (30:03)
Whether they're saying it or not, they probably have a lot going on about internal conflict in questions and sometimes they're afraid to ask and sometimes they don't know how to ask. Unfortunately what kids do is they make it their fault or they make it their problem.

They assume that the parents are smarter and they know more. "I remember that time they were arguing over somebody was being too soft and somebody was being too hard and that was about me and it must be that I'm the one who caused this." That's a dialogue that's going on inside of them.

If they're being quiet,

you might be missing a lot about what's going on under the surface.

Sol (30:40)
Okay, next question. Stop trying to control your co-parent and start focusing on...

Todd Sarner, MFT (30:45)
Try to reflect back to them their goodness if you can. Try to express your own sadness and be

Sometimes in high conflict situations, if you're vulnerable, the other person uses that against you, I understand all those things. But if you just keep being the voice for good intentions and being a fair actor yourself, even if you feel they're not, that's a practice and it's hard, but it's really the best you can do.

Sol (31:11)
Beautiful, Todd. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I've really appreciated your insights and your expertise.

Todd Sarner, MFT (31:16)
Thank you for

having me and for keeping me on my toes. The old lightning round there.

Sol (31:20)
you

Sol (31:23)
Thanks for joining us on the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. To support our show, subscribe or leave a rating. Links for all books and resources mentioned on appear in our show notes or on CoparentingBeyondConflict.com. See you next time.

Sol (31:40)
The commentary and opinions available on this podcast are for informational and entertainment purposes only, and not for the purpose of providing legal or psychological advice. You should contact a licensed attorney, coach, or therapist in your state to obtain advice with respect to any particular issue or problem.