Sol (00:01)
Happy New Year everyone and welcome to Coparenting Beyond Conflict Season 2. I'm your host, Sol, founder of the BestInterest app for co-parents. This is the time of year when many people start seriously thinking about getting a divorce. So today, we're going to take a step back and talk about how to approach it. And honestly, if you're feeling the storm clouds gathering or you're prejudgment and worried about cost or chaos,

even wondering if there's a way to get through all of this without tearing your family episode is for you. My guest today is Erin Levine, founder of Hello Divorce. She's a former family law attorney who left the courtroom to build a calmer, more humane path forward. We talk about why the system rewards conflict, how modern tools like AI can reduce stress, and what actually helps parents protect their kids during divorce. Let's dive in.

Sol (00:53)
Hi, Erin, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being with us today.

Erin Levine (00:56)
I'm excited to be here. We've been talking about this for a long time. it's to finally get a chance to talk.

Sol (01:04)
Indeed, yeah, and we're at the start of the new year. How are we finding you today?

Erin Levine (01:09)
Well, I am pleased to say for the first time in a very long time, somewhat relaxed and excited about the new year ahead.

Sol (01:19)
That's great. I imagine this time of year for Hello Divorce, your team is probably quite busy. This is a busy time of year for divorces and people talking about getting divorces. and...

Erin Levine (01:30)
That's right. November and December, we find, is the most important time to get in front of people to educate them about what the process might look like.

Emotions are really heightened. There's a lot of stress, issues that have been percolating for some time are very much present during the holidays and we want people to know before they pull the trigger in January, before they decide to move forward, if that is their choice, that there are other options besides the 'lawyer up and fight' battle

type of divorce. November and December, we spend a lot of time doing education. And then it feels like in January and February, even leading up to Valentine's Day when we peak, there's a lot of people that are like, "okay, let's go, let's get this started."

Sol (02:16)
I understand that you actually began your career as an attorney and then started Hello Divorce as an entrepreneur. And I'm curious about that journey. How did you move from being in the family legal system to deciding to help innovate around this problem?

Erin Levine (02:34)
Yes, that's exactly right. I started my career as a family law attorney. I built a pretty large law firm for family law. We had 13 lawyers at one time in the San Francisco Bay Area, town called Emeryville.

And I became a mediator, a private judge, a litigator, you name it. I tried everything. There were three issues that continued to keep me awake at night. The first was the cost. I was seeing so many people were getting turned away from divorce legal services because they couldn't afford 10, 20, 30, 40, $50,000 in fees. The second issue was conflict.

The system sets people up to fight. The divorce documents in virtually every state say, "X versus Y," "you are being sued." The only way to really resolve conflict in most states and counties is to battle it out in court. And I just felt like we are helping people transition into that next version of themselves, that next chapter. And we are doing the exact opposite of what good mental health

therapists and coaches tell us to do, which is keep the conflict low and the tension low for children. So I was like, there had to be another, a better way. And then the third big issue is I felt as lawyers, kind of, believe me, I love lawyers. We have great lawyers working with us, but I felt we could kind of bully the divorce process and that we were so focused on the law.

If you talk to someone who's going through the divorce process, yeah, the law is one piece and it's very important. But divorce is this massive life transition impacting everything from where am I going to live? How and when do I see my kids? What is life going to look like alone? What is my insurance policy is going to look like? How am I going to rebuild retirement? And I really wanted to start to build a platform that supports all of those things.

So sorry that was longer than I expected but I did want to share with you why I decided to make the leap and jump into startup life.

Sol (04:43)
Yeah, what I'm hearing is you're helping system, you're helping people move from a lawyer-led model of divorce to more of a user-led or needs-based model. Is that correct? How would you describe those terms and how they relate to your solution?

Erin Levine (04:58)
Thanks.

That's a great question. I am helping people to understand that they have options. And for the vast majority of people, the best option is not necessarily to pay a large retainer to a law firm, turn over your power and let the games begin. That uncertainty, that potential conflict, it heart, our mind, our body.

We're helping people to understand that that instinct to lawyer up might work and does work for a lot of people. There are situations where it's absolutely necessary. Abuse,

really high conflict or high complicated assets, but for most people it's not necessary and for them we want to be able to provide an alternative that makes divorce easier and kinder and a lot more affordable.

Sol (05:51)
Yeah, I mean, going with an attorney right off the bat sometimes will put you in a position of going down that path all the way through, which can be expensive, as you mentioned, time consuming. We had an attorney on last season, Elise Buie, who talked a lot about what can happen when you engage with a bulldog attorney

Erin Levine (06:07)
Mmm,

Sol (06:11)
so I love that you're thinking about this in a new way.

Erin Levine (06:11)
If all, ⁓ sorry.

Thank you. And if all attorneys were like Elise, we would be in great shape, right? But as we know, there are a lot of attorneys that aren't necessarily bad guys, right? But they are practicing law the way we've been taught, which is you prove your value by winning. And to win, you have to take someone down. And when we do that,

Sol (06:17)
Ha ha ha.

Erin Levine (06:35)
a family loses. Until we are able to shift the system and reward lawyers differently, it will be really challenging to continue this, default 'lawyer up and fight' model.

Sol (06:48)
Yeah,

that's a really excellent point. And part of the reason why I was so excited to talk with you today was that you're also an innovator in the space of divorce and co-parenting and using modern tools. I noticed that ⁓ Hello Divorce recently had a launch around AI and incorporating AI technology into your product. Could you tell us more about some of these innovations and how they can help people get through divorce?

Erin Levine (07:11)
again.

Sure. So we always solve for must-haves, for needs, for problems that we are seeing people face on the regular. And we're lucky because with my law firm, I'd have 10 people come in, 10 new clients, maybe a hundred, maybe a few hundred throughout the year. But with Hello Divorce, we get to meet thousands of people. And that gives us a sense for what they need, what they're looking for, what problems to solve. And so while

I'd love to build something

that really incorporates AI across the entire product, our first step was to see what we could build that would help to take down the level of anxiety and feeling of crisis. Because what we see so often is that divorce is such an opaque process that people get scared. And when you're scared, you oftentimes make really irrational

decisions, conflict ramps up, and that is not the way to start out your divorce. The tone that you begin your divorce is wildly important to the way that the divorce actually goes. So that was a long way of saying that we started with Hallie, and Hallie is a AI agent that's private and secure and trained not only

the laws of every state when it comes to divorce, but the county nuances because almost every county has their own rules and their own way of handling things. And it's not necessarily published. So as an example, right in the middle of COVID, San Francisco decided to stop taking e-signatures on divorce documents. Just out of the blue. Before that, they were actually taking it. We're in the heart of Silicon Valley.

We're in the heart of tech-enabled and tech services and products and they said 'no' and it wasn't published anywhere publicly. The only way that people found out was that their documents where they thought they were getting divorced were rejected by the court and mailed back to them weeks or months later. So those county nuances are really important. And then the other thing, and this is what I'm most excited about, is that we trained Hallie on over 300,000 Q&As

that customers had asked our lawyers and our financial advisors and our real estate experts over the years. We figured if lots of people had these questions, over the past few years, there's probably thousands, maybe millions more people that would have the same or similar ones.

Sol (09:41)
That sounds great. I'm so excited to see all of these new innovations that really what I'm hearing is, it's providing increased access for people to get information that they need to make good decisions for themselves and their family.

Erin Levine (09:55)
You said it perfectly and that's the heart of why I do this. The access to justice piece is what drives me every day. I'm the founding board member of Justice Technology Association. Access is important and Hallie is free and Hallie will always be free. There will be different agents and different AI components to our product as it grows, but

Hallie is a great tool for people to use before, during, or after their divorce.

Sol (10:24)
To carry on this theme too, obviously with BestInterest, we like to think of serving as a barrier between sometimes quite opposed parties in a divorcing family. And I know you've talked a bit about how technology can help with communication. Could you tell us more about your philosophy there and what we can look forward to in the future?

Erin Levine (10:45)
Yes, absolutely. And you know, I'm a huge fan of what you built. I love it. It's not something that we have the expertise on, so I'm so glad this tool is out there in the world. And I think we think about this pretty similarly. Technology does not replace good judgment. But

Sol (10:54)
Thank you.

Erin Levine (11:01)
it creates, and in particular, your tool creates the structure when emotions are high and having the structure and these communication tools naturally lower our stress levels and ultimately lower conflict. I know because I'm in the weeds every day, the lower the conflict, the faster divorce and the better ultimately co-parenting. I love how the app is really focused - and

maybe this isn't how you think about it, but this is how I think about it: I've had others try the app as well. Instead of focusing people on everything that's going wrong

in their lives or in their relationship or in their co-parenting, it centers them back to what is going to move the needle forward and themselves and their own journey. I think That is one of the things I love best about it. You have far more technology experience than I do so I'd love to hear from you,

why create technology tool to deal with such a wildly personal long time

Sol (12:02)
For me, the journey started with going through it myself. And you mentioned about how AI can help understand language and maybe give some insights on wording and framing and how communication can be perceived. And that's been my own journey in my life. I remember that the first day my therapist

taught me the word "triggered". And I was triggered by the word triggered because it was a gun reference and I was kind of nonviolent. "What are you talking about?" And yet, having done all of that emotional work and become more aware of my own emotional states and how they can control the way that I communicate or the way that I behave and reflecting on how that impacted my marriage negatively... Not being able to

Erin Levine (12:27)
Yeah.

Sol (12:44)
have that self-awareness and just kind of go off the cuff. That definitely informs the philosophy of BestInterest, which is that we can step in and we can educate people on better ways of communicating so that they are perceived in a better light, not only by their co-parent, but also potentially by a court of law if it ever gets to that point. And it essentially just,

like your tool you're talking about, grounds people back into reality. So when you're feeling really triggered, you might rush to judgment and send quick defensive message. It's not going to help you and it doesn't resolve the conflict as I'm sure many listeners have experienced. But when you take a break, take a pause, sometimes BestInterest can help you do that. We can talk you into reframing something or removing something that wouldn't be helpful.

Erin Levine (13:34)
So it's perfect that you just said that because one of our team members who tried your app said that conflict throughout their co-parenting experience thrived when there was chaos, and that this tool helped reduce that chaos for her because it slowed her down.

And then the responses, especially, I don't know that her ex-spouse is a narcissist, we throw that word around a lot, but certainly has those tendencies and her learning now to speak like much more neutral language has helped so much because it's so much harder for him to argue with that. So

Sol (14:11)
Yeah,

what we're helping users do is change their communication style. And these things are a dynamic. You might be responding to your co-parent's aggressive, angry texts, kind of feeling victim-y, right? And you might be responding back in a defensive way. Well, guess what you just did? You just created an entanglement, and now you are enmeshed with your ex

in this battle that probably looks a little familiar to the way that you battled back when you were married. And that's not good for anyone. But if you are able to, using tools or training, get out of that and start communicating in a different way, that can help reduce the amount of conflict in that relationship, regardless of who's the narcissist.

Erin Levine (14:56)
Yeah, and that's what I want people to hear. The communication issues that we had during our marriage don't magically go away during separation or post-divorce. They are still going to be there. But we have the power to change how we face them, how we move through them, how we take the next step, how we let or not let

or conflict,  sort seep into how we walk through the world.

Sol (15:21)
about your product makes me wish that I could go back and I could champion using that versus going with attorneys because it wasn't and isn't a fun road. It's a very expensive road. Like you were saying earlier, it's a model that's designed on almost like a war model. There's a winners and losers.

Erin Levine (15:34)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sol (15:41)
Which doesn't

Erin Levine (15:41)
Yeah.

Sol (15:41)
make any sense. You end up attacking yourself when you attack your ex with kids. When you're saying, "I'm gonna go and find the most aggressive attorney so I can protect my kids," what you're saying is "I'm going to attack my ex to defend myself and defend the kids." Well, your kids are half theirs.

And so by doing that, you're essentially attacking your kids and you're attacking the family system. So it's really not a good model to imagine winners and losers and it's the mediation model and the education model and the more modern way of working together, coming together. I just feel like that is the right path forward for most families.

Let's say I'm in the throes of my marriage ending, I'm contemplating divorce, I find Hello Divorce, it has a really nice friendly name, but I think, geez, my wife or my husband is a narcissist, they're never gonna go for this, maybe they've even hired an attorney, is it too late to use your tool?

Erin Levine (16:36)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (16:39)
Is this not what it's for?

Erin Levine (16:39)
No.

So first of all, vast majority of people who come to Hello Divorce and end up using Hello Divorce are not in agreement with their spouse. They are so far away from coming to an agreement or they haven't even started negotiating. So of course, Hello Divorce is a no brainer for many people who already have an agreement and a very amicable divorce. But let's chat about these people that know their spouse is going to cause some conflict. What I always say is

start with first of all, offer a free 15 minute call with our divorce coaches who can help you even understand options and for many people, this is the first time they're saying 'divorce' out loud and it can feel really positive to take a step after, in many cases, years of being in indecision and pain. So that's always an option. But before filing, whether it's with Hello Divorce or somewhere else,

I want people to reach out, get the education that they need instead of panic, and use Hello Divorce to start to understand their options. In my state, can I file jointly? Can I file solo? What is litigation? What is mediation? What is being self-represented? so that you can decide what approach you want to take and

it could change. You might decide at some point, we've resolved 95 % of this, but there is still a very big issue about whether or not we are going to nest with our kids, about whether or not my spouse is going to buy me out of the residence. And for that, we need additional support. And that's okay too. Here's one of the ways that Hello Divorce is unique. You can start with or without your spouse. You can come to Hello Divorce to develop your plan,

begin your paperwork, file your paperwork, get financial advice, even talk to a lawyer.

In most cases, 67 % of the time, the spouse ends up joining the platform as well. Even if they're a narcissist, they still have motivations, right? It could be like, "my spouse didn't lawyer up with the most aggressive attorney in town. I might be able to save some money here." But for the most part, a lot of times the spouse joins and then we can move them through mediation if there's a lot of conflict.

If the spouse doesn't join, in many cases they can still use Hello Divorce to help them figure out how to negotiate on their behalf throughout the divorce process or even use a lawyer to help them. Worst case scenarios, we help you find the right lawyer who can represent you if the matter moves to court.

And so we're not going to leave you hanging. It's very important for us to find a good option for you. But that's quite rare. Only 5 % of our divorces actually go to a contested hearing or trial.

Sol (19:29)
That's really great. A lot of our listeners are post-judgment and might be listening to this and thinking, "well, gosh, you know, I wish." But I'm also curious about for those that are pre-judgment and they're maybe feeling the storm clouds growing, or they've spent the last holiday just really knowing that this is the right path and they're just not sure how to start. And maybe they're worried about going down this court path.

What are three steps that they could take today to keep things going on a more collaborative track?

Erin Levine (19:58)
The first thing I would do is focus on what is stressing you out the most. What is keeping you up at night? So if somebody comes to me and tells me they want a sense for whether or not they're going to be entitled to spousal support or alimony, how much and maybe how long, then that's where I start.

Book a 30-minute session, doesn't have to be through Hello Divorce but it can be with a lawyer or a certified divorce financial analyst to get a sense for what that looks like. If it's what my budget will look like or what I can afford, or if I'll be able to stay in the house, then book

a session with a real estate expert and the best real estate experts like Tami, I don't know if you've had her on your podcast yet, but she's amazing. Tami Wollensak will help you to figure out not only if you can qualify for your own mortgage, but can you afford that with your lifestyle? So start with what is stressing you out the most.

The second thing is to really educate yourself on your approach and your strategy. The approach being, what types of divorces are out there, the mediation, the litigation, the collaborative. So you get a sense for what that looks like and then your strategy. But really 'what does divorce look like in my state?' You're not going to be able to figure it all out in the moment. You really are not going to, and you don't have to. You've been able to figure out

hard things before you were able to plan for many of these people like their own elaborate wedding, they can certainly do this divorce, and you're going to do it in stages. But start to learn what what does it look like in my state? How long does it usually take?

What's my best case scenario? What's my worst case scenario? Once you've done that, you really put yourself in a much better place to be able to move forward. And then my third step I would say would be to start to use tools like BestInterest for how to communicate. What is that script going to be when if you're the one who's making the decision to tell your spouse you want to divorce? Or how are you going to communicate about co-parenting?

How are you going to set ground rules? one of my favorite things to do is to say to your spouse, "we don't know what will happen here or what we will ultimately agree to. But can we agree in the moment that we will only talk about kid-related stuff when the kids aren't around? Can we agree that we are not going to lawyer up and immediately take each other to court?"

When you start putting these ground rules in place, either your spouse follows them, and if they do, that is fantastic because you can take a deep breath and move through the process on your own time, or they don't. And if they don't, you now know what you're dealing with, and that informs what approach or strategy you'll take.

Sol (22:51)
Taking that example of your spouse hiring the meanest lawyer in town and letting you know about that, what would be your advice to that person on how to handle the situation, maybe try to de-escalate it?

Erin Levine (23:04)
I still think and I see it many times over and over that just because they've hired that lawyer, sometimes it's a safety blanket. It doesn't mean that you still can't move that case out of this path of litigation. What a lot of people in that situation will do is wait for their spouse for a calm moment when things are going reasonably well, and talk about not everything that their spouse has done wrong and all

the pain and the problems and you've lawyered up, but more of, and have to swallow your ego a little bit to do this, but to say something like, "hey, I'm concerned. Obviously, you've hired a lawyer, I'm going to hire a lawyer. There's a lot of uncertainty, conflict. We're gonna have this random judge make decisions about our lives. We're gonna spend thousands and thousands of dollars that we don't have. We can take that path.

Or you can keep your lawyer, but we can try to resolve this in mediation with a super experienced, neutral,

amazing mediator who can help us resolve conflict. We don't even have to meet together. They can broker a deal between us. You could still have your lawyer for advice, but let's see if we can try that first." It actually works a lot of the time. No one - I mean, there are true narcissists - but most people don't really want a long, messy, wildly expensive, scary, complicated,

uncertain just don't know what else to do. I think the tendency is just to react. But when they say "I've got this lawyer, I'm gonna take you down." But if you can use Sol's tool, the BestInterest app to help determine how you can talk through other strategies or other ways to move through this, that is golden.

Sol (24:45)
Yeah, there are so many reasons why going down that path of hiring an attorney, going to court, litigating a divorce is detrimental. And You know, obviously, everyone knows the expense more or less, but maybe how much? Also the fact that

a lot of your information then becomes public record, which is for a lot of people a big downside. I think it's just about finding common ground. You you both share kids, and you both love your kids. So how can you appeal to that common ground when you're having these discussions? I think it can become a bit of an arms race where they're afraid of what you might do and you're afraid of what they might do. And so then you just kind of lawyer up all the way to the top and that doesn't help anyone.

Erin Levine (25:04)
Mm.

Yep.

Sol (25:25)
And so if you drop that rope in the beginning, it might feel weak, but in the end, that's strength. That's potentially moving your family in a much more collaborative and beneficial direction that could save you years of your life.

Erin Levine (25:39)
Years of your life. There's a lot of people that will say to me, I have to lawyer up because I am terrified that the only asset, we have $100,000 in the bank account, she is going to take. And in that scenario, I'm like, you can take half, put it in your account.

disclose it, be transparent, share with her what you've done and that you won't touch it until you come to an agreement or the court makes orders, but then you're protected. And so it's no longer the reason to immediately lawyer up and go down that path.

Sol (26:10)
Yeah, I think that's a pretty common scenario about money. there's a lot of fear around losing access to bank accounts that are shared and that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah.

Erin Levine (26:17)
And it's real, right? Like that does happen. People do

in panic or in anger cut people off. I hear it so much. It's like, we have a little bit of money, but I'm afraid I'm going to lose access. Well, let's make sure that you don't.

Sol (26:28)
Erin, before we move on to our closing takeaway, I'd like to do a lightning round with you. this is pretty simple. We're just going to, read off some sentences and you'll fill in the blank. Okay. So ready to go. Okay.

Erin Levine (26:40)
Yep.

Sol (26:41)
A child doesn't need their parents to win, they need them to...

Erin Levine (26:46)
be respectful to each other.

Sol (26:47)
Hmm, that's really good. I like that. The biggest lie parents are sold about family court is...

Erin Levine (26:54)
That they're going to get their day in court and that that matters.

Sol (26:59)
Can you tell me more about that?

Erin Levine (27:00)
I think people look to the court and to that process to vindicate them and they believe that that is in fact what they will get when the reality is the only way to get to the point where you are

in front of the judge talking about what you believe your spouse has done is usually months if not years into the divorce process after you've spent thousands and thousands of dollars.

Family law court is not based on vindication. In many cases at that point, they're just trying to split the baby. I know it's a terrible reference, but just kind of get people done. You don't get that emotional justice nine and a half times out of 10.

Sol (27:47)
Yeah, I mean, the courts don't really even generally have a lens on emotions. It's all very fact-based, almost mathematical. By standing up and announcing all the ways you are wronged, oftentimes you just are met with a blank.

Erin Levine (28:05)
It's the last thing that judges want to hear. They don't believe it, and they want you to focus on your child, not all the things that your ex has apparently done wrong.

Sol (28:14)
Yeah, in some ways I feel I wish that the court system did incorporate concepts around therapy or maybe even having a therapist as part of the intervention. I know some Alternative Dispute Resolution programs do that.

Erin Levine (28:28)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean that's ideal, but I don't know that we're going to see that widespread anytime soon.

Sol (28:34)
⁓

Okay, continuing our Lightning Round. Peace starts when parents stop trying to...

Erin Levine (28:40)
blame their ex for everything that isn't going their way.

Sol (28:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and blaming for the past, right? It's like how do we look forward?

Erin Levine (28:50)
Yeah.

Great. Yep.

Sol (28:53)
Okay, if I could automate one part of the human heart during divorce, it would be...

Erin Levine (28:58)
This one's so hard because I hate seeing people go through all the pain and even a somewhat amicable divorce is really, really grueling. But the best people I know who have the healthiest relationships down the road and the healthiest kids are the people who went through that, who did the hard work, who went to therapy,

who grieved, who just really, lived their divorce and and were present through it. Part of me would want to automate all of that pain and sort of, you know, remove it from the process. But I think it really makes us who we are.

I've never had someone come back to me and say, God, I wish I was still married to that person. There really is a glow up ultimately for both men and women in that they've learned

how they want to give and receive love. And I just think that's so beautiful. So sorry, I didn't fill in the blank, but.

Sol (29:57)
No, that was gold. ⁓ Yeah,

I completely agree with you. Divorce is so challenging, but from challenge comes a lot of growth. And I don't think I've ever met anyone who's gone through divorce and said that they haven't been changed by it. So it's really about your attitude and perspective on, what will you do with this time and how will you emerge from this difficult moment in your life?

Erin Levine (30:13)
Yeah.

Yeah. And I've seen on the flip side, I've litigated a case for years and years and years where it destroyed people. Where they became their divorce, they lived in that conflict. So it can do the exact opposite as well.

If you're kind to yourself and remind yourself, it hurts, but it's supposed to hurt. And I'm going to get through this. I can do hard things. I've done hard things. Man, you're in for such a awakened life where you feel so alive. And I love that. I love seeing that in people.

Sol (30:48)
That's so great. I'm realizing that there's a question I wanted to talk to you about that's a topic I'm reading more in the news, of states going down the road of getting rid of no-fault divorce. I'm sure you have some opinions on that. I'd be curious to hear your take and if you see that happening.

Erin Levine (31:04)
Yeah, I'll try to make this short because it's something I'm very passionate about. No-fault divorce is when you can file for divorce any reason. You don't need to prove that your spouse is abusive or

cheating, or whatever it might be. There's a no fault divorce option in every state currently, but not everybody gets to use that option. So what I mean by that is in addition to some states trying to repeal no-fault, they are also trying to increase covenant marriage. And what covenant marriage is, it's supposed to

make your marriage even stronger. You're doing it in not only the eyes of the law, but in front of the and with the support of the eyes of God, but it traps you in marriage,

should you later decide to divorce because you have to go the fault-based route. So those are the two issues that are coming up a lot. Covenant marriage is only in three states right now. Legislators in some other states are trying to expand it. No-fault divorce is being challenged in a few states and so far has made zero progress, but has gotten a lot of attention.

What's most concerning about that is that when no-fault divorce was introduced by Ronald Reagan first in California and then throughout the States... Ronald Reagan said that it was one of his biggest regrets. No-fault divorce was actually so important because when it was introduced, what happened was female suicide

Sol (32:25)
I didn't expect that.

Erin Levine (32:38)
went down massively and so did domestic violence because people were no longer trapped in marriages. So I personally don't think that fault-based divorce makes marriages stronger. I don't think it makes marriages stronger to trap people inside but there are a lot of people and legislatures that disagree.

Sol (32:57)
Wow, yeah, well thank you for that background and it definitely piques my attention when I'm hearing about changes to the divorce process that make it harder. My personal philosophy of course is that marriage should be equally hard. It should be equally hard to get a marriage as it is to get divorced. The fact that

Erin Levine (33:14)
love that.

Sol (33:15)
you just sign on a dotted line and if you do decide to undo that you would have to get a degree in divorce logistics ⁓ is crazy.

Erin Levine (33:23)
My gosh, it's insanity.

We got a lot of criticism when we first launched and for a couple years after that, like, "you're making divorce easy. Everyone's going to go out and get divorced." Well, first of all, divorce is the most considered decision that any of us ever make. Many people take years to try to save their marriage, work through it, all the stuff before they make the decision. So that's not going to happen.

Sol (33:46)
If any happy

married people are listening to this podcast right now, we're not encouraging you.

Erin Levine (33:50)
Yeah, don't run out and get divorced.

And then second, we can't make divorce easier. We can't because it is so complicated. And virtually every state - I don't care how magical our tech platform becomes or is -

there's still 30+ forms you have to do. There's this negotiation that you're doing for your livelihood while you are navigating your way out of relationship and mending a broken heart. Divorce will never be easy. So we don't need to make it any harder.

Sol (34:22)
I love that. To close this out, let's speak to a listener who maybe right now is feeling a little down. Maybe they're facing the possibility of getting divorced or they're worried about litigation or they're just really having a tough go with co-parenting. What's one transformative action that you would recommend they take today to

start feeling better, maybe get on a better track?

Erin Levine (34:45)
I would write down a few steps.

and like an action plan. Maybe it's you're going to set up an account with BestInterest or with Hello Divorce or both. Maybe you're going to schedule a call. Maybe you're going to talk to a divorce lawyer. Write them down and nothing better than a list and start checking them off. And that way you start to see progress without pushing yourself to move faster than you are ready.

You just got to take a giant deep breath and know it's not always going to feel this way. You're on your own timeline and you will learn what you need to learn along the way.

Sol (35:20)
That's really good advice. And it reminds me of advice that someone gave me before I had my first kid: it's going to start out really hard. But just remember that every day gets a little bit easier. And that's been my experience is, yeah, there are some really hard days, but all in all, things just get easier as your kids grow up. There are different challenges, maybe you're just getting better at, being a parent,

but it gets easier over time. And the same thing can be applied to the process of divorce. At first, you're gonna feel super overwhelmed. There's a million and one things that you need to learn and figure out and do, and it's gonna feel really hard, but over time, you'll get more used to it, and at the end of the day, you'll be stronger for it.

Erin Levine (35:44)
Yeah.

Absolutely. And to the extent that there are logistical stuff that has to get done, decisions and timelines and documents and filing, that is certainly something that we do really well at Hello Divorce. So if it makes you feel better to know where you are in the process and what's your next step, that is something that we can help with.

Sol (36:24)
Great, and I understand that there's a promo code that our listeners can use if they'd like to use Hello Divorce.

Erin Levine (36:29)
We do. So we have a promo code. You can type "BESTINTEREST" into checkout. You can check out through Google Pay or Apple Pay or a link to pay. And that will entitle you to 10 % off all plans. So plans include your entire divorce experience, either DIY with some support along the way or fully supported with mediators and lawyers.

Sol (36:53)
Great, thank you so much, Erin. Thanks for being here today and thanks for all your insights.

Erin Levine (36:57)
Thank you so much. It was great.

Sol (37:00)
Thanks for joining us on the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. To support our show, please subscribe or leave a rating. Links for all books and resources mentioned on today's podcast appear in our show notes or on CoparentingBeyondConflict.com. See you next time.