Sol (00:01)
Welcome back to Coparenting Beyond Conflict. I'm your host, Sol, founder of the BestInterest Coparenting app. Today's episode is a powerful reminder of what's truly at stake when conflict takes over in divorce. My guest, Joe Dillon, is a divorce mediator with decades of experience. As a child, after his own parents' divorce, he only ever saw his father while in a courtroom. We talk about fear, money, control,

and the quiet ways that kids carry adult conflict, along with practical tools for getting on the same page, even in high conflict situations. Let's dive in.

Sol (00:36)
Hi Joe, how are you doing today? Welcome.

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (00:39)
Thanks for having me, Sol. I appreciate it.

Sol (00:41)
It's so great to have you on the podcast. You describe yourself, Joe, as being a peacemaker and not just professionally, but personally. Before we get into mediation and some of the services that you provide, I'd love to understand more about that process and what that means to you. What is a peacemaker and how did you get into this work?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (00:53)
Yep.

I've been doing this 28 years now, I've been in negotiation and mediation. And as you probably my parents litigated their divorce. It was really high conflict. And it was all the collateral damage that everybody says, oh, that's not going to happen to us. But yeah, it does. I sat in the back of the courtroom, never talked to my father again, you know, all the good stuff. But from that, what I took is that

people who really get entrenched in these positions really are convinced they're right. There's nothing you can do really if you're just trying to go back at them with your opinion or trying to poke holes in their opinion. That just goes back and forth. And that leads to a lot of conflict. So as a peacemaker, I'm always trying to see all sides, theirs, theirs, mine.

There's so many sides to every issue. And by asking questions, trying to understand both sides, trying to understand what their view of reality is. And it can be something as simple as I'm having a conflict with my next door neighbor. It could be something that's political in my town or at the national level, or I live in a homeowners association here. So it could be something with that. And everybody's always screaming and yelling. If we take some time to really take a step back and really listen

and find that we really do have a lot more in common than we don't. And we really are trying to achieve the same goal. We're just coming at it from different ways. That's what it means to me is to be that person in the middle who goes, let's just all take it down a notch and let's hear out everybody and hear their opinions and let's really understand why they feel that way. And then that can help us move towards resolution.

That's constantly my filter. So that's what it means to me.

Sol (02:34)
How much would you say your choice of profession was dictated by those experiences early in life?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (02:40)
That's a great question. As we all are on the playground as a kid, I don't think anybody is thinking, I want to be a divorce mediator. Hey, that's a great idea. You want to be a fireman or an astronaut or cowboy or whatever it is, right? This is really a profession that I was unwittingly led to. My background is negotiation and finance.

I had a lot of corporate experience doing that. Then when I struck out on my own, this just became a natural extension. And here we are nearly 18 years later, having formed Equitable Mediation in 2008, which is crazy. I can't believe I've been doing this this long, but it really just feels like a natural extension of who I am and my experiences, especially as a child of a high conflict divorce, really, that's really a key component here.

Sol (03:24)
Something struck me that you mentioned that you were only seeing your father in court. Can you tell me more about that? How did that evolve?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (03:31)
Right, that's a key challenge you have in any divorce where there's such animosity between the adults that when children are involved, the adults can't put aside their feelings towards the other person and therefore the kids become the collateral damage. So I'm really angry at you and the kids want to spend Thanksgiving with you so I'm not talking to any of you.

That's really what happened in my situation. I'm an only child. I lived 100 % with my mom. And I think my dad felt like my mom was kind of turning me against him. I was a teenager. Certainly everybody as an adult, you go back and you look at the situation and you say, there's enough blame to go around here. Maybe even myself. I was a kid, how did I know? But that's what happens. Unfortunately,

we see a lot of that where one person can't set aside their feelings. And that's really, I think what happened with my father. He was so angry at my mother that by definition, he then took it out on me. And I remember situations where my mom wanted him to come to my high school graduation. So she mailed him a ticket, and he mailed it back. And then she sent him a, ⁓

a graduation portrait of me, like an 8x10 in a frame. And he dropped it off in a paper bag back at our house. And you're like, what did I do? Right? I'm just the kid and this is your son. He graduated at top of his class in high school. Wouldn't you want to have a picture of that? Wouldn't you be proud of your son? And nope, I dumped it on the front stoop.

I had no idea my mom did that. She was trying to bridge that gap. But when you've got those high conflict situations, that's pretty much it. So the last time I saw him was actually they were arguing over who was going to pay for me to go to college. My mom

was very much one of those, "I'm going to just do whatever it takes and make this happen." So my mom's like, we have to get you a suit jacket and a tie and get you a haircut. And I want you in the back of that courtroom. So the judge sees you as a nice young man and he'll support you going to college. Because remember, this is back in the 80s. This is before child support guidelines.

This is when the divorce rate was really spiking, And so I sat there in the back of the courtroom and I'm watching this battle ping pong back and forth. And I'm thinking, man, I wish I was hanging out with my girlfriend or playing in my band. This is not where I want to be. And the last time I saw my father was in the hallway of the courtroom as they were kind of yelling at each other or whatever. And he stomped off. That was it. I was 16, 15, something like that. And I never saw him again.

I think I may have gotten one letter from him telling me he was getting remarried. I think that's it. And then the next letter I got was actually from his estate that he had passed away. And that happened, I think in 2019. So I had 39 year gap between seeing him in court and then finding out he died and there was no communication in the middle.

That's a lesson to your listeners of what not to do when it's worse.

Sol (06:28)
hearing that Joe and I'll be honest, I'm feeling a little emotional. That's really intense for a child to experience that.

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (06:32)
Yeah

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. And it took a lot of time and a lot of unresolved feelings as an adult. You really have to work through those things because remember, your kids, they didn't want this. They didn't ask for the divorce. They're not adults. They don't know what's going on. I love you both. I want to spend time with both of you. I don't know what, what's happening here. And I don't really care or shouldn't care and shouldn't have to.

I should be able to see both of you and have my happy childhood because it really does have a very lasting impact on you through years and years that unfortunately at the time most adults don't realize. So yeah.

Sol (07:12)
Yeah, for any parents that are listening that are either approaching litigation or are in litigation right now, what would you like them to understand about how conflict can shape a child's sense of relationship?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (07:26)
Yeah, the one mistake I see parents make over and over is it doesn't matter how old your kids are. Your kids know exactly what's going on. They might not have the words. Like a five-year-old isn't going to be able to say, "I see you're both in conflict." That's not going to come out of their mouth, but they're going to cry or wet the bed or suck their thumb or do something else to react to the stress of the situation.

And that's really an important lesson to realize that kids are sponges. Whatever you think you're saying or you think you're hiding or you think they don't hear you, they absolutely do. So you need to keep your conflict away from your kids. Do not involve them. Do not share with them what's going on. When you're in front of them, you do need to really, and I know it's hard, you've got a bite down on your tongue and really just say,

We're together standing next to each other in front of our child or children, and we just need to keep the mom and dad united front. And then as soon as you leave that space, you want to go into your car and pound the steering wheel or scream out loud, that's totally fine. But that moment right there when you are mom and dad, you're not plaintiff and defendant to your kids. It's your mom and dad, and you need to make sure that you're keeping that united front so that they feel safe, secure, loved.

And they don't have to make the choice I did because naturally what winds up happening, and I know my mom did the best, but if you're a kid and one of your parents says to you, "hey, you don't really wanna spend time with your mom, do you?"

What are you gonna say to that, right? If you're a little kid, you're like, "no, is that the right answer?" Parents don't even realize they're doing it because they've got an agenda and that agenda is coloring their parenting. For the most part, it's unwitting, asking leading questions. Like "you have a lot more fun at mom's house, don't you?"

"Yeah, I guess so, yeah." "Okay, then why don't you just stay here this weekend," right? That kind of stuff is unfortunate, but in those kinds of high conflict situations is very common. We need to really watch as adults what we say either in front of our kids or to our kids. That's really the big takeaway.

Sol (09:37)
Yeah. Well, what I'm hearing as parents, if we're holding a grudge with our ex, sometimes it can become more like seeking revenge for what was done versus finding resolution or commonality. Why do feel like parents sometimes confuse the two of those?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (09:42)
Mm-hmm.

I think in today's society, and this may even be a universal thing, we're all very busy and we're all very stretched and we're at our wit's end. Let's say had big meeting, first thing in the morning, you were going to give this big presentation and your neighbor's dog

barked nonstop overnight and you got zero sleep or if any sleep you got was very non-restful. Do you think you would be at your best at that presentation? So now think of the barking dog as the stress of your divorce or the stress of your job or the stress of single parenting or the fill in the blank, whatever it is. What can you do

to address that so that you're your best self. In my barking dog example, get earplugs. What I'd say to parents is recognize that this is happening.

Recognize that you have a choice that you don't need to react to the other individual that you are in control of your own self and if you need help with that, seek that help. We're all so very "I can do it. I'm self-sufficient." It's a very American thing. We're all independent. It's like, talk to a therapist, talk to a counselor. That's what these folks are here for. They're here to help you. They can teach you how to not react to your ex-spouse. They can teach you how to

manage your feelings so you can be your best self and you can be that best parent. If the other person is coming at you, you don't need to go back at them. That's lost in a lot of this co-parenting and post-divorce communication. I hear this all the time: "We went to counseling and it didn't work." Okay, well, what was the purpose of counseling?

Or "we were trying to get our marriage back on track and we couldn't, so here we are, Joe, with you." Okay, great. I'm not asking you to go to counseling to put your marriage back together because obviously we're going through divorce mediation here. But what if you went and you spoke to that counselor as individuals or if you spoke to them as a couple and said, rather than marriage counseling, we'd like a co-parenting counselor and we'd like you to help us come together and effectively communicate,

put our feelings aside. These kinds of things are just so important. There are people who can help you manage that and that you do have a choice in how you act and behave.

Sol (12:03)
Well, and just to underline that point, as we transition from being a married couple to being co-parents, there's many steps in between, but there's still a relationship. It just has to shift. And so what you're advocating for is, you need support through that whole process. And this is still a relationship that you have to navigate. Why do it alone without a team? Yeah.

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (12:11)
Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah,

absolutely.

We can read books, we can do certain things and that's I think a very important part of it. But to get that real dynamic feedback from a counselor, from a therapist, to be able to have someone who will challenge you and challenge your way of thinking. The question you have to ask yourself is, is this behavior serving me? Is this serving me in my current life? Is this making me happier?

Is this making me a better parent or a worse I bet if you really asked that question and really listened to the answer, conflict doesn't make you a better parent.

The takeaway is just do what you can to manage the conflict. For example, with your app, it's really important. "Why do I need an app? I can text my, my ex." It's like, we all have that friend, we all think of it when that friend comes up on our caller ID, we're like, man, I don't feel like it.

Even though they're your friend, and that's a person you like! Now imagine your phone is blowing up with stuff from somebody where you're like, ⁓ God, what do they want now? And an app like yours can really help manage that, keep it in like a velvet rope, in its little pen to kind of cordone it off so that it doesn't spill over into your day. There's nothing worse.

You don't want to be sitting in a meeting and your phone buzzes and you flip it over and then there's this all caps, nastygram.

Sol (13:41)
it's hard to stay present when we're facing communication like that. And in a way, when parents are embroiled in kind of the tit for tat back and forth communication, even if they don't see their role in it, typically someone's playing defense and someone's playing offense and maybe they switch roles and yet they're still embroiled in this conflict that's not helping anyone move on or be better parents.

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (13:52)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (14:05)
For certain what BestInterest is all about.

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (14:08)
Yeah, and it's unfortunate because that's a perfect example of there are tools out there that can help advantage of them. It doesn't make you a failure. It doesn't make you any less of a parent. In fact, I think it makes you a better parent because as you just shared, presence is the gift that you give to someone else of yourself.

Imagine you're a single parent with a child and you're fighting wars on multiple fronts.

How are you gonna be present for that child and be able to give that child the attention they need so that they develop, they feel loved, they feel safe and secure. And that's by having some of these gatekeepers, if you will, it definitely helps where you know that you're not missing anything and you can choose when you wanna go in and view those messages or view that communication or how you react. Because also,

think about What do we do? We've been trained by social media companies that if somebody posts something on our whatever gram thing and we have to flame them right back, and we're waiting for the three dots to show up, right? So we can type right back. It's like, what a waste of time. Just I'll deal with you when I feel like dealing with you.

Sol (15:15)
Joe, just stepping back for a moment, I'm curious about in your own line of work, do parents come to you typically in the early stages? You mentioned about that couple that is coming to you, they're done with therapy and now they're ready for divorce and they've decided together. And is that typically the case or do you see people coming in post-judgment?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (15:37)
Almost all of our casework is divorce. It's not post-judgment. There's a couple of reasons why, and I'll share that in a moment. We're focusing on people who have made the decision to divorce together. They want a more peaceful alternative to the attorney-driven litigious manner that my parents went through. As a divorce mediator,

we really need both people on the same page. We want to get them early in the process so that they haven't gone off to the races. I would say maybe 5 % of our clients have perhaps engaged with an attorney already, maybe retained one and either filed or haven't filed but have the attorney on hold, so to speak. But really a majority of our casework comes from people. We do private mediation, not court-ordered. Everyone comes to us through our website.

When we get a post-judgment case, we'll only work with post-judgment clients who were former clients of ours. Because we know, unfortunately, someone who comes through the courts, what's happened is they've tried to go to court already and they want to see the judge. And then the judge says, "as a condition of seeing me, you need to try mediation." And invariably we found over the years,

people would write in and say, could you just write me a letter that says I reached out to you so that I can go back to court? "You're not even trying, man." I'm not gonna spend any time with this. The folks who we work with, "Bobby graduated high school now and he's actually going to college in Europe. We didn't even know that was gonna happen. Can you help us figure out what kind of financial support we should give him?" That I can work with.

The other stuff is really hard because if people wanna fight, they're gonna fight and no matter how much you tell them, "you could save hundreds of thousands of dollars. You could finish in months instead of years. You could not destroy your family." They don't care, They're so blinded by the rage and sometimes unfortunately there's no talking them off the ledge.

Sol (17:26)
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get with code Beyond10. Link in the show notes.

Sol AI (17:48)
And now, back to the show.

Sol (17:49)
Do you ever have situations where one side of the couple is wanting to do mediation and the other side needs to be more convinced or are they typically just both on board?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (17:59)
Yeah, we call that the reluctant spouse. I'd say about half of the people who inquire with us have a reluctant spouse and then can't mediate because it has to be voluntary. We posit ourselves as neutral third parties. And we are very clear to the folks who reach out to us via our info calls or initial meetings and say, "we are not in the business of convincing your spouse to get a divorce or convincing them to mediate. We will share with them the benefits of mediation. We hope they will see that.

We will answer any questions or concerns they have about why they should mediate versus litigate. And then if they so choose, wonderful." However, more often than not, other party will feel as if they're at a disadvantage, which is unfortunate because as a mediator, even though I'm neutral, I do advocate for both sides. My job is to help both parties. We want to get them to understand that, but many times where there's a power imbalance, perhaps a lack of financial acumen on one party's...

they want to retain an attorney. They feel protected or safe and that's unfortunate because it doesn't have to be that way. You can certainly mediate with us and then you can have an attorney review your agreement and then they'll look at it and say, "this is what I would have gotten for you or "this is really close" or "hey, you might want to go back and ask for more of X, Y and Z." And that's really how it should work, but that's not our job to convince people. To answer your question,

probably half the people who come in and really want to mediate, they can't because their spouse is unwilling to do so.

Sol (19:22)
Well and you mentioned the desire to be protected one potential roadblock towards mediation or the allure of the court system. What other sorts of reluctance do you find in your line of work around mediation?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (19:37)
Mostly the other piece is one person doesn't believe the marriage is over. They want to continue to work on it. And the sad reality is it takes two people to be married, but only one to file for divorce. And now it simply becomes a choice of how you get that divorce. If you're reluctant, but understand that there's nothing you can do to change your spouse's mind, now your choice is,

how do you get this divorce? Do I hire a lawyer, pull the pin out a grenade and blow this thing up? Or do I at least mediate and try to preserve my family and my wealth and dignity and things like that? When we get those situations, that's also challenging because again, we're not here to convince someone to get a divorce either. And that can also create an awkward dynamic where the individual who wants it is saying,

"you need to tell them this is over." No, that's not my job, My job is to say I'm a mediator and I provide a service to help people in their marriage. When you've got one individual who's reluctant in many cases I've seen, someone will come in and in the middle of what should be a divorce mediation, initial meeting will be kind of having a

counseling session, which we have to stop. Because I'm not a counselor. I'm woefully under qualified to be a mental health professional. But they'll say, "look, we've had four marriage counselors already. What do you think the fifth one is going to do any differently?" And you hear those things because that person is drowning and they're holding onto that life raft and they're just praying for that one last chance. To me, that's a lot of is the fear of the unknown. It's the fear of what comes next. That's something that

they're going to need to work on because this person is going to divorce you no matter what. And you're going to find yourself in this situation anyway.

Sol (21:15)
I can really relate to that feeling of reluctance as having been married and approaching divorce, all the fears that come up, like you'd mentioned, the fear of the unknown. Will I survive this? I can absolutely relate to that. So reluctance of actually saying, 'this is done and I'm headed in that direction' can be really challenging.

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (21:37)
Yeah, and that's part of why we try to allay any fears we can because when people get into a situation, it's very expensive to live now.

And you're now getting a divorce and you're taking this same income that is now going to have to spread across two households. Most of our clients can barely make it in one. And that really is a daunting prospect.

Part of our process is trying to check the financial reality of these settlements to make sure that both parties can at least be okay, or on somewhat equal footing, not that one person's fine and one person's destitute. Those are the things that are scary. It's the lack also of support. A lot of times in a relationship,

your spouse is your world and maybe you don't have enough of a support system around you. So it can also be scary to say, "well, gee, what happens if I get sick and I need somebody to take care of me?" Those kinds of things. And a lot of this requires heavy lifting to build friends and support and do inner work and improve your financial standing. Any one of those topics is daunting. Now you throw a divorce in and by the way,

you need to resolve all of them at the same time. And that I can understand why it can be tricky. We try to help people transition through this. My partner Cheryl is also my wife. She's a divorce coach. I like to believe of course, as the divorce mediator that I'm the most important guy in the room because yay, I do the mediation.

But I make no mistake, it's emotions that drive divorce. And Cheryl is really the most important person in the room. She helps clients manage that emotional stuff, because if you can manage that and put on a clear head, then you can say, "okay, I'm going to be short a thousand dollars a month. How do I address that? What can I start doing to build my career or earn extra income or reduce my expenses?" Right? If you can gain mental clarity, then you can

gain tactical clarity. Divorce is a very emotional issue and that's what typically clouds everyone's judgment and their ability to move forward. So we try to help them manage that as well as, I'm doing all the tactical parenting and child support and property division and all those things that have to be done as a divorce, but there's a whole other component to it, and that's that emotional piece that I really see

people fail to address.

Sol (23:51)
Well, my listeners will not be surprised to know how little I think of the litigation family court system. You're definitely preaching to the choir here. I wonder, you'd mentioned about this reluctance where people might be feeling that they need to protect themselves and hire that bulldog attorney and get protected.

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (23:57)
Yeah.

Sol (24:10)
How does mediation compare to that? How can mediation create the safety that litigation doesn't?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (24:17)
I have friends who are attorneys. Attorneys play a very valuable role in some cases. There are certain situations I've run into where there's been dissipation of assets, failure to file tax returns for 10 years unbeknownst to the one spouse, people with families in other

And those are not mediation-friendly cases, as you would imagine. So certainly there needs to be a system in place to address those, but the majority of them can be handled in mediation. To answer your question, I think it boils down to this one thing: Fear. It is all about fear. If you've ever called a home security system company,

and you've been put on hold... You call in and you're like, "hi, I'd to talk to somebody about an alarm system." Great. And they put you on hold. And then while you're on hold, "did you know every 3.2 seconds someone's home is broken into?" And you're just like, "wow, I really need this alarm system. I can't wait to get to the sales rep." Because it's all scare tactics.

That to me is what the legal system does. "You don't want to get screwed. You're going to let them take advantage of you. We could fight for so much more. We will get you every penny." You went to school for 17 years or however long you went to school. Of course, I'm going to believe you. The opposite in mediation. We have a saying:

do the discovery before the deciding. We didn't decide anything, we need information, and numbers don't lie. I have an MBA in finance. I'm not a lawyer, I'm a mediator, I'm a very rare bird. But a lot of the reasons we get the cases we do, we get the high net worth business owner, complex stock option is because I say, "look, there's a reality to what's going on here.

Yes, your lawyer is going to say, 'I'm going to get you everything.' No, they're not." One party is not walking away with 100 % of the assets. It's just not happening. But that individual has convinced you that they can get you the 100 % and the other person will be living in that cardboard box on the street corner. What mediation does, we say, "look,

here's the reality. Here's everything you've got. You're all going to need a place to live. You're all going to need a car to drive. You're going to need some money in your bank to buy groceries. You're going to need to retire eventually." We lay it all out. We take that emotion out and say, "here's everything we've got. How do we split this up?" That takes the temperature down and people understand where you say to someone "this is my retirement." Okay. Certainly you worked and you earned it, but when you got married,

when you saved for retirement, if you were married, would you share that with your spouse? Or would you say, "no, this is mine and you have to go find your own retirement"? If you stayed married, you would share it, of course. So those kinds of conversations happen and that's how we do it. We take out that fear mongering. I say, it's still gonna be bumpy. I'm not gonna lie to you. You're not gonna be able to go jetting off to Paris and London.

But really, it's just getting that fear out of that equation and saying, "here's what we've got, here's the reality of the situation, what do you think is fair?" And that really solves what it boils down to, is that element of what's fair in that.

Sol (27:13)
With your finance background, you see money playing a role in these types of situations? I read that you talk about it as a symbolic fight. Can you tell me more about that?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (27:22)
Yeah,

money is power and people want to own power. They have money, they can do things. We see that in our political system. We see that in our corporate system. Now in a relationship where someone's at the office and they've worked the hours and they've earned the salary, they feel like 'this is mine.' That's an individual who is not really concerned about the greater good. They identify themselves through this and that money is power and control.

A lot more women have college degrees than our grandparents. These are women who are intelligent, educated,

went to college and then perhaps gave up their career to be the primary caregiver inside the home. Had they stayed in the workforce, they may very well have been exactly where their spouse was, where their perhaps husband or their wife was. By being that primary caregiver, they've given up that power and now they're in a very vulnerable position.

Really the message we try to say is that you built a partnership.

You each played a role. One of your roles perhaps was to work outside the home and earn resources. One was to work inside the home and manage those resources. Both of those are equally important. That's how we really try to posit it so that people feel like this is a level playing field, that they do have a say in how this money gets allocated and shared and spent because they did play a valuable role. I hammer that message over and over.

Sol (28:42)
Yeah, that's a very empowering message. Facing a divorce can feel very disempowering. Hearing that message that you'll be okay, you'll be taken care of, and that's a priority in this room, I can imagine goes a long way towards cooling the temperatures.

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (28:58)
Yeah, certainly

Sol (28:59)
Let's say a listener is considering taking their spouse to mediation. What should they be looking for in terms of skills that a good mediator might have?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (29:11)
First and foremost is experience in the issue that you're facing. So for example, if you have a spouse who suffers from a behavioral issue.

I'm not your mediator. You would need a mediator who has a mental health background. I would recommend that. I would say, I'm glad you're wanting to mediate. I'm not the right mediator for you. You might want to consider someone who has a mental health background. That's really important to match the professional with the skill. And that's why I was saying, we get a lot of business owners. I'm a business owner. They're like, "well, Joe, you're a business owner. You understand what it means.

You understand that I don't get a regular paycheck. You know what it's like to try to file your taxes." I totally do. And we can have a real conversation. So that I would say is one thing, match the professional to the skill, the background, the training to what you need. The other thing is, experience does matter, I know everybody has to get their start, but as the issues get bigger and the conflicts get hotter, you do need someone with years and years of experience.

If you've got a high conflict post-judgment issue, you want to find out has this person done court-ordered mediation training? Are they familiar with the process? Because depends on the state.

If they understand the process of how things work and they know what they need to do because the mediators can really also negatively impact your ability to move through the courts.

And then I'd also ask them about their case resolution rate. One of the things that people think about mediators, they're like, well, they tried. They're neutral, they tried, but good mediators are gonna be able to get people who were at loggerheads to agree. That's their job. It's sort of like,

you went to the doctor and you broke your leg and the doctor's like, yeah, I tried to fix your broken leg. I tried, I couldn't do it, but good luck. Here's some crutches. Really? Your job was to fix my leg and to set it in the cast. Yeah, I didn't. I'm sorry. So you're looking for somebody who's at least average mediation rates are about 70%. Somebody should be able to at least resolve 70 % of their cases.

I can't tell you how many people I've had who've reached out to us early in mediation, not post-judgment even, where they're like, we started with another mediator. We had six sessions and we got nowhere. First of all, let me apologize on behalf of the mediation community. I feel bad. And second of all, let's get you through this, because if you're talking to me for six months, 12 months, we got a bigger problem

other than what's going on with you. I get it. I'm not the guy you want to be spending two or three years of your life with. You want to spend two or three months with me, move through the issues and move forward. So that's what I'd say. Match your background. If you're in a post-judgment situation, understand if they are familiar with the court system because a lot of the post-judgment stuff does need to go through - change orders or whatever your state calls it to file, with the courts.

And then do ask about that resolution rate and what they do and how they get people through it, you know, because it's not good enough to try. You've got to be able to say to people, I am confident that in our case, 98 % of our clients reach agreement. So that's our case resolution rate over the years, we've lost five. One was the 'I haven't filed taxes in 10 years.' That would have been nice to know before you became a client. One was

'I have another family in a different country.' That would have been great to know. There was no getting out of those alive. You really need advanced practitioners in those post-judgment mediation cases. You really need to get somebody who knows what they're doing and can really dig in because

invariably, one person wants to change things and one person thinks everything is fine. And now they say, "fine, I'll go to mediation, but only because you want to." And they're not really there to mediate. So you need somebody who can either get them through it or, to say, here's what we did, here's what we tried.

This individual behaved this way, therefore, no hope for this case here.

Sol (32:53)
I can just hear a lot of our listeners right now saying, well, that sounds wonderful, but my ex is a narcissist. Do you see that those types of cases work well for mediation? Is there a technique that a mediator can use?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (33:00)
Yep.

Yeah, certainly. That's where advanced mediation comes into play. As you would imagine, we get clients who are like that. I say this to your listeners, grab a pad and a pen. This is a technique you can use day in and day out.

In the broadest, the social sense of a narcissist, a narcissist is a self-centered individual. They're concerned about themselves. They like to hear the sound of their own voice. They like to think that they're right. They like to get things their way. Framing conversations in such a way that they are a perceived benefit to the listener, the recipient, in this case, the narcissist, is the way to get what you want, is the way to move through the conversations. Phrases like,

"You know what? That's a really good point." Or, "I could see why you'd be upset about that. That makes perfect sense. Totally. Let's talk about it." not trying to trick anybody, but you're acknowledging and validating.

That's the key.

I'm saying I'm putting myself in your position, acknowledging that I could see how you'd feel that way, making that person feel right, making them inflated, making them feel special. That's how you're dealing with an individual like that. That works time and time again.

You get a lot of these guys. "I don't want to pay child support" or "I'm paying too much". "Yeah, you know what? You're right. You do work long hours. I don't know how you put up with that boss of yours. God, your travel schedule is insane. You're a rock star for doing that." If that's going to get you the child support you need, keep the words flowing, man. Keep the praise going, keep the faucet open.

That's a technique I call detached engagement. Let's talk about that. I'm engaged with you, but I'm floating above

as a third party watching this conversation unfold. That's not Joe saying those things. That's Avatar Joe. And so you don't have to feel, 'I can't believe I'm giving this person a compliment.' You're just trying to get resolution. You're trying to get shoes for your kid or groceries on your table, whatever it is.

But my favorite question, and really this is super helpful for anybody out there is "help me understand." That doesn't say "why", it's not inflammatory. It gets the other person talking. Get them talking. You can learn a lot about what their positions are. So you can start filing it away and building your process to get around it.

It gives them a chance to talk. You're listening, you're learning, you're gathering the information. And then all the things that come out, acknowledge and validate. "You're right. These formulas are ridiculous. Who do these government people think they are with their child support They don't know my family. So that's why you and I should mediate our own amount of child support. We should decide what's best for our family." You see, that was a real quick turn I made.

And then you jump on the bandwagon and then you steer it into the mediation where it's like, "you're right. We should be able to control this. I don't want anybody telling us what to do. Screw those lawyers, screw that court system." So you're getting what you want by acknowledging and validating what the other person is upset about. And that works

time and time again.

Sol (35:54)
That also is just such good advice for any relationship to get to an understanding. It doesn't require a narcissist in the equation. It's as we're forming these new relationships in our lives, how can we do it in a more understanding way? And that's a good pathway to it.

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (35:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah, absolutely. It's what we all need, is a bit more understanding. Rather than telling people what we want, ask them what they want. And if you have a good relationship, whether it's a friend, a coworker, a family, they're going to ask you back. And if they're not, then that's not a relationship worth investing in. If it's one sided, that's a fire hose. I don't want to get sprayed with a fire hose of information. I want somebody to say, "gosh, I'm so sorry. I've been talking so much, Joe, how was your day? How's your job?"

We see that a lot in these co-parenting situations, you'll get one person who's typically on the offense, that gets tiring. Their goal is to tire the other person out and get them to succumb. And those are the worst situations because that person succumbs. And then in the quiet of night or a friend or a new relationship or says, "why'd you let that happen?" Or

"what happened, why don't you go back?" And then that person snaps back with a vengeance and now you're really off to the races. And so it's better to try and get that out upfront, try and air that, try to get that acknowledging, validating dialogue going and making sure that it's at least two-sided in the sense that in a case of a narcissist or a difficult communicator, you can get them, with enough practice, to state your objectives.

There's great books out there. I love certain books, Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. Getting to Yes is the classic treatise on negotiation. if you read these books, it will change the way you view the world, the way you view communication and

whether it's going through divorce, a post-judgment issue, a coworker or a neighbor, invaluable information.

Sol (37:37)
Joe, before we close, for a parent listening right now that's just feeling really scared and overwhelmed by the situation, what do they most need to hear right now?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (37:46)
That it will be okay. This too shall pass. The one thing people feel like in the moment is it's the world. It's just collapsing in on them. And kids eventually grow up. They are no longer minors. And it's been my experience 100 % of the time. When they become adults, if you are truly the one who supported them,

and was there for them and showed them unconditional love, they're gonna figure that out. They might not get it when they're 18 or 19, but when they're 25 or 30 or 35.

Just know that you just keep doing the right things over and over and over and over. And eventually as the relationship evolves and the kids age and they become adults, they'll know that it was you who was there.

Sol (38:28)
Thanks so much for being on today with us and sharing your insights. This has all been very helpful. Finally, for listeners that are interested in connecting with you, finding more about your work, how can they reach out to you?

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (38:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, certainly. So the best place is our website. Our company is Equitable Mediation. So equitablemediation.com We have a whole learning center with all kinds of articles, videos, courses, checklists. A lot of the stuff is free. We want people to feel educated,

get quality resources. So our website, equitablemediation.com, you can see we practice in six different states and look at all the stuff in the learning center, read the articles. We have some great articles on co-parenting, how to tell your kids, all these kinds of things... developing parenting plans, child support articles, all these kinds of things that hopefully

can help people really dig in and get that knowledge so that they have a peace, as they're going through whatever process, whether it's pre or post, and they can feel that everything's gonna be okay. That's the best place to reach out.

Sol (39:26)
Great, and we'll put those links in the show notes. Again, thanks so much for being on today, Joe. Have a great day.

Joe Dillon Equitable Mediation (39:30)
Yeah,

thanks, you too.

Sol (39:33)
Thanks for joining us on the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. To support our show, subscribe or leave a rating. Links for all books and resources mentioned on appear in our show notes or on CoparentingBeyondConflict.com. See you next time.

Sol (39:51)
The commentary and opinions available on this podcast are for informational and entertainment purposes only, and not for the purpose of providing legal or psychological advice. You should contact a licensed attorney, coach, or therapist in your state to obtain advice with respect to any particular issue or problem.