Sol (00:01)
Welcome to Coparenting Beyond Conflict. I'm your host, Sol, founder of the BestInterest app for co-parents. At BestInterest and on this podcast, my goal is to help you find peace in the storm. Today, I'm joined by Nicole Sodoma, founder of one of the largest family law firms in the country. She's the author of Please Don't Say You're Sorry, and a divorce attorney who has also lived through divorce herself. I appreciate Nicole's practical

candidness in this episode and the helpful advice that she offers to us. If you're exhausted by the conflict and you're wondering if any of this ever gets any easier, this episode is for you. Let's dive in.

Sol (00:39)
Hi, Nicole. Thanks for joining us today. It's so good to have you here.

Nicole Sodoma (00:43)
Thank you for having me.

Sol (00:45)
I'm looking forward to getting into your experience, but before we dive into it, I'm curious, what's something happening in your life right now outside of work that's bringing you joy?

Nicole Sodoma (00:55)
I have a son that is getting ready to graduate high school. And that is bringing me so much pain and joy all at the same time. he is the oldest of my three boys, and he's going to be moving across country and I've only ugly cried once. So I feel pretty proud of that. That is bringing me a lot of joy. It's really such an honor to

raise someone and then, set them on this journey and know that they're going to be okay.

Sol (01:20)
Yeah, and I imagine that's even especially meaningful to you given the path that you yourself have gone on. I understand that besides being an attorney, you're also a mother, step-parent, an ex-wife. Can you tell us more about how that personal experience has shaped how you advise your clients?

Nicole Sodoma (01:38)
When I went through my own separation, I had been a divorce lawyer for almost 20 But then when I experienced it myself, what I learned the most was that there were a lot of things that my clients had not been telling me. And there were a lot of things that I wish I'd been telling my clients.

I had very specific events happen where I was like, ⁓ my gosh, like I had no idea. And I would have done things a little differently. So that's how it really came to be. And I'm not just a divorce lawyer. I started a law firm in 2008. We've been around now 18 years. And so they're actually, over 40 divorce lawyers. I'm not only in this position of being a divorce attorney, but I'm also advising other divorce attorneys as

as mentor-mentee relationships and wow, it just was a really eye-opening experience.

Sol (02:25)
Mm-hmm. And I understand you're also an author. Your book, Please Don't Say You're Sorry, that title is so provoking. As a co-parent, we're maybe used to saying we're sorry, especially when it comes to divorce and parenting. Can you tell us more about your thoughts on why stopping saying the word sorry is a crucial step towards peace?

Nicole Sodoma (02:49)
I think when you hear "I'm sorry," and I had never heard those words as often as I heard them after I announced that I was separated. I kept getting pounded with this, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry." And it did the opposite of what I wanted it to do. I'm not sure what they were sorry for. And I'm not sure that they knew what they were sorry for. And so what ended up happening was you stop feeling empowered

in whatever decision was made or made for you, whether it was yours or the other person's. So you stop feeling empowered and you start feeling victim. You start feeling sad for yourself, sad for your children. And it doesn't have to be the perspective. You get to choose what perspective you want. It's all these choices you get to make. And so when you're going through that process and you're second-guessing everything, hearing I'm sorry was very deflating

for so many reasons. We also hear "I'm sorry" when someone dies, it's a condolence of sorts. What I was looking for was come up with another way to tell me how you're feeling or to tell me how you think you can support me through this. The events leading up to my separation and recognizing all of these things that my clients had not told me for all of those years was what prompted the writing of the book.

Sol (03:58)
I can definitely relate to hearing, "I'm sorry," often. And what is your response when someone says that? "I'm sorry that you're getting divorced."

Nicole Sodoma (04:07)
It's usually, "please don't say you're sorry." Yes, and it's funny because it's carried over into lots of other things. Women in particular would say "I'm sorry" for more than they're actually sorry for because they're words that are supposed to bring peace or calm or whatever. And also the generation before me,

my mother's generation, that's all they did. They say "I'm sorry" for everything. It's that baby boomer age. And so I was used to hearing it. I said it all the time. And then I found other people saying it to me. It crept over into other parts of my life where my friends and my clients and my colleagues, they know not to tell me they're sorry.

They're also thinking about why they're saying they're sorry. I'd like to say that I hopefully am starting a movement to be less apologetic.

Sol (04:52)
Hmm, I love that. Diving into some other terms that surround divorce, separation, co-parenting, I'm very interested in your take on, for instance, nesting. This is, a very popularized notion. I think it's usually painted in a positive light that it's great for the kids.

Many of us that are stuck in high conflict situations, we almost feel guilty that we're not able to accomplish nesting or say yes to it. Can you tell us more about that and how nesting actually impacts high conflict relationships?

Nicole Sodoma (05:27)
Nesting is often difficult in high conflict relationships, period. It is more difficult to accomplish. If I am in a situation where I'm advising a client on whether to nest, whether to even offer it, it does depend on whether they're in high conflict because it doesn't usually work. There's lots of invasion of privacy feelings. It's intrusive. There's no peace for the parents,

and there's certainly no empowerment. It's great for the children, but we also have to show up as parents as our best selves. If there's any abuse allegations, any drug or alcohol allegations, domestic violence, and I'm separating that from abuse because I think one is very subjective, it makes it really impossible. And then of course, you've got scenarios where

you have to also think about the details of what nesting is going to mean to you. First of all, you have to be able to afford it. Second, are you ready to date? Because some states allow you to start dating, being in another relationship with no consequence right after you separate. There are several states where on the day you separate, you can start acting as if you're unmarried legally. So you want to know what your law is in your state before you

you decide to nest if you are already ready to date. Most of the time, there is one person in a separation that has been ready to move on for a very long time. And so they are going to be likely more anxious to find a partner that makes them happy.

Sol (06:53)
Yeah, and in nesting, obviously dating becomes even more complex and can introduce some dynamics that aren't healthy for anyone.

Nicole Sodoma (07:01)
Yes, absolutely. It invokes questions from the children, depending on how discreet you are in those decisions. Especially in an age of technology and depending on the age of your children, there's so many factors that if you are intentional about nesting, you also should be intentional about the other things that you have to take into account if that's the decision you're going to make.

Sol (07:26)
Now switching gears to another topic we hear a lot is conscious uncoupling. That's a buzzword that has been going around and is idealized. What do you think about conscious uncoupling? Does it work?

Nicole Sodoma (07:38)
Conscious uncoupling to me would be this idea that we are going to work together in a collaborative fashion and we are going to keep the children at the forefront. But, you know, that may not be possible in all things with us. And now I always say like, whether you're a celebrity or a school teacher,

the law is going to apply the same. It's just a matter of how we resolve it. And the issues are likely to be very similar. At least The baseline issues are going to be the same if you've got those same circumstances. But it's how you resolve it, how you respond to it. And the idea of conscious uncoupling allows us to do that. But You have to remember that it takes two to say I do and one to say I don't.

And so usually when you're at this impasse where somebody no longer wants to be married, they also might not necessarily want it resolved in the same way that you want it Finding that compromise is going to be really important in order to be successful in conscious uncoupling.

Sol (08:38)
Well, now you have me thinking about these Hollywood stars getting divorced and how much drama that would create knowing that everyone's following your divorce.

Nicole Sodoma (08:47)
I don't follow a lot of Hollywood and celebrity or whatever, but on my Instagram feed last week, I saw there was a lot of chatter about Tiger Woods and his ex-wife. They were together when their son was graduating and moving on anyway. And there was all this chatter online about

'my gosh, she's standing near him.' And the reality is, is whether you're a celebrity couple or you're normal people like us, you're supposed to put aside your conflict for the sake of your children. I'm going to say you should. I understand that there are abuse situations where people might not be able to.

There are parents who will miss out on big events because they don't want to be in the same room as the other parent. To me, you got to figure a way to work around that. I have no intentions of missing anything for any of my children or my bonus children because of my dislike for someone else.

They deserve to be first.

Sol (09:42)
Again, we're talking about the notion of this collaborative versus a more acrimonious type of divorce and co-parenting arrangement. We've talked a lot on this podcast about parallel parenting. And there are many different expert opinions about if it's successful or not or if it should be used.

What is your take on parallel parenting and when it might be helpful?

Nicole Sodoma (10:04)
I think parallel parenting can be difficult. I think co-parenting can be difficult. I think of it in terms of real life, discipline, technology,

that your children want to make where you can't agree and if there is an impasse between the two parents, how do you reach a resolution? I know that they're nice words, but when you're in the moment, it all is going to come down to how a decision is made. What

resources are you going to have in the moment when you're trying to parent your child and the other person isn't parenting in the same way? And how that impacts the child and what resources do you have to help you and the other parent come to a resolution that is most beneficial and in the child's best interest? So, you know, the terms are nice.

Sol (10:53)
In terms of parallel parenting, oftentimes it's thought of as a solution or can be a solution for these high conflict relationships where maybe one or both parents have a personality disorder of some sort. Do you feel like parallel parenting is something that needs to be worked through or is it a solution for high conflict?

Nicole Sodoma (11:13)
I think it's a path. And if you think of Parallel parenting - I mean, I usually explain it to people in that you're going to be not necessarily working together, but you're working and going in the same direction. Like we're going to be on the same highway going in the same direction. We might not even have the same goals, but The communication is going to feel different. It's not going to be collaborative,

but hopefully the goals are the same. And if you don't have the same goals, having a way to resolve that issue is gonna be really paramount for the best interests of the children.

Sol (11:47)
In terms of navigating these high-conflict relationships, what sorts of boundaries, legally or otherwise, should parents be setting with their ex?

Nicole Sodoma (11:57)
There's so many boundaries. I didn't even use the word boundaries before 2019. I feel like it now I get now it's used every day. I see it every single day. So when I think of boundaries, I think of the contact between parents. I think of the method of contact between parents. Some of those may be how many text messages,

how many emails should there be? Should we be using a kid-focused app that you could offer another person to look at or have access to? I think of boundaries in those terms because, if you're attempting to co-parent or parallel parent, the communication

could feel really strained, especially if you don't agree. Having a very prescribed way of communicating that is effective for the two of you, is gonna be most important, especially if you're trying to raise a child together. It's not like when you were married that this person is going to be any nicer to you than they were before. They're not gonna like you any more than they liked you before.

When you add another partner into it, it's probably still not gonna be any better because now the influence has changed. A boundary could be, are you going to invite both parents to a birthday party?

⁓ When I think of a boundary, the first thing that comes to mind for me is communication. How often, what the communication should entail. I love the idea of communicating once or twice a week in an email.

One of the things that I have advised clients and that I've done myself is,

An email at the beginning of the week or an email at the beginning of a transition, an email at the end of a transition, and you can break it up into categories. You can say social, academic, medical, other, upcoming dates. Another one might be a boundary about scheduling. If you have more than one child, scheduling is really, could be really overwhelming and complex. Having a shared calendar, either on a platform, a shared free Gmail address or whatever it is,

where you both have access, you're sharing in the responsibility of scheduling, knowing what the rules are. You can't schedule on my time without letting me know in advance and getting my consent. And that includes birthday parties and things like that.

People aren't thinking to themselves when they're separating, how am I going to get my daughter or son to a birthday party that is for my mother that is on his time? The answer may be, you're not going to. You're going to have to figure out how to make that on a different time if you're in a high conflict situation.

Sol (14:28)
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get with code Beyond10. Link in the show notes.

Sol AI (14:50)
And now, back to the show.

Sol (14:52)
What if I am post judgment,

and I've realized, there is something that's really important to me, that my co-parent isn't listening to me. Can we modify parenting plans post-judgment? How does that work?

Nicole Sodoma (15:05)
You can always agree to something outside of an order or an agreement, so long as you both agree to it. And I would recommend that it be in writing, but it doesn't have to be something formal. Because if you're not in compliance or someone alleges that you're not in compliance, you'll have a document and you'll say look, we agreed to this. But modifying an existing agreement or a court order can be really difficult.

So sometimes you'll find that you're relying on the spirit of the terms. And I'll give you a super, super simple example. One parent wants their son to play soccer. There's not gonna be a provision in your order about whether your son who was three when you separated and is now seven wants to play soccer. There are all these things you have to now think about. You have to think about are there gonna be two uniforms at both homes? Are they gonna have two sets of equipment?

What if a game is on the other person's parenting time? So let's say you even thought about those things and your agreement or order says that one parent is going to do the transportation. Seems pretty simple, right? Well, what if that parent is out of town and they send someone a carpool to pick up the child? Is that allowed?

The spirit of the agreement is that it's just going to be that other person's responsibility. But if the language in the agreement says that person will pick up and instead send someone in their stead, like that is technically not in compliance if we're reading it on its face.

Don't assume that that person is going to be the same person that's reading it, six years from now. You're never going to find someone who's going to be able to close all the gaps, but you do want your attorney to be thinking about your life three years from now.

To be thinking about what happens when you meet someone and they also have children and their parenting schedule is on the opposite schedule as yours. You want to have a provision in your document that allows for you to modify, if it's appropriate, if your state allows you to do so, because there are gonna be these changes, or you need to have a path to resolve it

in real time and maybe that's in the event there's an impasse, the person who wants to resolve it can notify you of the possibility of mediation, but it's the person who wants to change that pays for mediation. But the other person has to agree, but that doesn't necessarily change your document, but maybe it brings clearer heads to the table.

Sol (17:26)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And yeah, it sounds like it's challenging, but it can be done. And it's better to just be able to come to an agreement with your co-parent. Do you have any advice for us on when we are at loggerheads with our ex on an issue? Are there communication styles or other methods that you recommend, to get closer to getting our way?

Nicole Sodoma (17:49)
Dr. Bill Eddy wrote a book, I have several copies that I offer to my clients. He's a lawyer and a therapist and he wrote a book and it basically says, if your partner is this, this is how you should communicate.

If you're with a narcissist, telling that person they're a narcissist is not gonna solve the problem. You have to know how to communicate with that person. Most of the time, that is a learned response. So you can't expect to change that person. The only thing you can expect to change is how you show up and how you communicate. Thinking through that,

and setting yourself up for success is gonna take a little education and then you're gonna have to execute on what you learn in order to get closer to what you want.

You just have to be able to execute and put aside your feelings. Or pick your battles.

Sol (18:39)
Yeah, tell us more about picking your battles. How do we know when it really is something we should spend our time on versus just let it go?

Nicole Sodoma (18:47)
I tell my clients at the very beginning, I want them to list the priorities for them, and they're different for every single family. For a decade, my goal was to make sure that my children had strong relationships with their cousins. It's not something I had. And I have brothers who have children,

so that was really important to me. It was like the next generation of the family and they were all pretty close in age. Every year for at least a decade, I find a place and I say, everybody come to this place. You get there, y'all pay for the food. I just, you just get there and I'll tell you where it's gonna be. And I start planning 364 days in advance, right when we leave the one before.

I had no idea that that would be an issue for my children's dad because it was something that we did together. But the people we marry are not the people we divorce. And that's something I want people to remember, that what might have been okay before is maybe not going to be okay later. So prioritize what is important to you. That was important to me.

I knew it from the very beginning that I needed to make sure that it was addressed. What I'm going to have to give up, what I had to give up for that to happen wasn't also important, but I had to decide how important it was. I want people to think about those priorities. maybe it's that every July 4th, you have this tradition. If that's not going to be something you're allowed to have, then you're going to need to create a new tradition and accept that.

But your children aren't going to care that it's not on July 4. They're going to care about the quality time. And maybe you create a new July 4 for them. But prioritizing what your goals are. Do that at the beginning of the case if you can. Because a lot of times, the principle gets in the way between the time you separate and the time you're actually signing an agreement.

At the beginning, it just feels like the baseline before the emotions start going haywire. And it is really common to have these periods of freedom and grief in that process. So recognizing where you are, figuring out what you want, really important.

Sol (20:53)
Now moving on to our lightning round. How this works is I'm going to read off a sentence and you fill in the blank and we discuss. Okay, ready? All right. A child doesn't need their parents to win. They need them to...

Nicole Sodoma (20:58)
Thank you.

Let's see.

agree.

Sol (21:08)
Hmm. Yeah, that makes things easier, doesn't it?

Nicole Sodoma (21:10)
Yes, they need them to love the child more than they dislike each other.

Sol (21:17)
The biggest lie parents are sold about family court is...

Nicole Sodoma (21:21)
it will feel like a win.

Sol (21:22)
Ooh, tell me more about that.

Nicole Sodoma (21:24)
You never feel like you win. You might win on one issue.

It's hard to identify what a win is in family You might think you're going to get your day or your 15 minutes, but it is not going to happen exactly as you think it's going to happen.

The other thing is, is that you don't know if the judge on the bench is having a bad day or if they did family law before they got onto the bench or if they were a criminal judge. You might not know or even thought any of those things but there are so many things that are out of your control in the courtroom that you might not even think of that you would be surprised.

Sol (21:58)
Yeah, you said a lot of interesting things. The one thing that struck me is you hear a lot about parents approaching the hearing. Maybe they're even getting an evidentiary hearing. They're approaching it as sort of this way to air the dirty laundry and expose the other parent. Is that something that you see? And how well does it go or not?

Nicole Sodoma (22:24)
Yes, it is something that we see. And depending on the circumstances, it could go well. I mean, recordings are very damaging. And often you will hear, the other person is going to be so charming in the courtroom, they'll pull one over on the judge. The word charming is used a lot in my profession. I have some inkling as to why I think people use that word. But I hear it a lot.

And so when you get into the courtroom, thinking about what evidence you're going to use, thinking about what the most important evidence is going to be, and then having a few things in your back pocket, because you don't know what's going to happen in the courtroom. You don't know what the other person is going to think is most important. But there are very specific things that the judge is going to want to hear, and the rest of it is likely to be about credibility.

Sol (23:09)
Yeah, credibility is so important at family court, isn't it? What are some things that that knock down a person's credibility in the eyes of the judge?

Nicole Sodoma (23:11)
Yes.

Mmm.

I think of one of my judges who looked at an opposing party and said, if this is the way you behave in my courtroom, then I can't imagine the way you behave outside of my courtroom. There was an allegation of alcohol abuse.

And the judge said, "if you have to stop and think for a minute about whether I'm going to tell you not to drink or whether you get your kids, if you have to think about that for longer than a second, then you probably have a problem.

I had a case. It's just one of those cases that will stick with me forever. Dad calls home where the mom and children are still living. And he says, "let me speak with..." and he names one of the kids that he wants to speak with before mom can hang up the phone and they were on a landline.

Before mom could hang up the phone, dad starts to spew awful things about mom. Like, "is that bitch still on the phone? Is she listening?" And starts to talk really badly about mom to one of the kids. Well, when mom hears it, she doesn't hang up, she records it, and we used it as evidence. And it was very, very damaging. And it told such a bigger story.

I couldn't have predicted that that was going to happen. The credibility is really big. It can really hurt.

Sol (24:35)
Yeah, and it sounds like it can turn on a dime too.

Nicole Sodoma (24:37)
It can. It can turn on a dime. Yes.

Sol (24:40)
Okay, next question. Peace starts when parents stop trying to...

Nicole Sodoma (24:44)
align the children with their views.

Sol (24:47)
I like that one. Yeah. The most underrated tool for a divorced parent is...

Nicole Sodoma (24:52)
how to communicate. And when I say, don't think it's a tool, but it can be a tool. There are tools to teach you how to communicate, but maybe the most underrated tool.

Sol (24:53)
Hmm.

Nicole Sodoma (25:01)
Knowing how to best communicate with the other parent is so important. I know I've really hit that hard today about communication.

Sol (25:10)
Yeah, it's a really important thing to underline.

People are not mindful of the way they communicate and how that impacts the dynamic and I'm thinking just taking a breath before communicating, slowing things down

is such a really helpful and underutilized tool because we can get so heated in the moments of conflict that we say things we regret later.

Nicole Sodoma (25:35)
Yes, I call it the space between. Recognizing that there is a space between, there's a quote in an old book and it talks about the space between stimulus and response. And in that space, you have the freedom to choose how you want to respond, but you won't have that freedom to choose if you don't give yourself a minute. It

could be something as easy as, you could write the email, but you can't send it. Maybe it's "thank you for sharing, I need a minute to process." I think so often we see our exes as exactly who they were when we were married to them and that they see you the same way too, but it doesn't

make room for growth. And that seems really unfair. I can say I'm a much better mother and much more present and love the time that I get to spend with my children when no one else is around because it's real time.

I get that feedback often from clients that the time they spend with their children post-separation is so much healthier, because you are likely healthier, because the communication is better between you and your children. So, food for thought.

Sol (26:54)
Nicole, thanks so much for being with us today and offering your insights. Before we get into how to connect with you, I just would like to get your parting words of wisdom. Speaking to that parent who's listening right now that's just feeling really overwhelmed by the process and maybe feeling a bit defeated. What's one hopeful, actionable step they could take today?

Nicole Sodoma (27:14)
Recognizing that the roller coaster of freedom and grief, will last minutes. Maybe it will last a day, but it will continue to be freedom and grief until they're settled. And they have to have faith in that. And also to allow yourself a day off from whatever the chaos is you're feeling. Getting, separated and divorced

can feel like a full-time job. It can take over so many different parts of your life all at the same time. Showing yourself some grace and taking a full day off from all of the chaos will help. can do it, you can get through it.

Sol (27:53)
That's great advice.

For listeners who would like to connect with you, learn about your book, how can they find out more about you?

Nicole Sodoma (28:01)
Nicole Sodoma and I have a site and I'm pretty easy to find online. So happy to help and happy to spend time with you and get to know you. I really appreciate you having me as a guest.

Sol (28:12)
Thank you, Nicole, and we'll put all those links in the show notes. Thanks again for being on today.

Nicole Sodoma (28:17)
Great, thank you for having me.

Sol (28:19)
Thanks for joining us on the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. To support our show, subscribe or leave a rating. Links for all books and resources mentioned on appear in our show notes or on CoparentingBeyondConflict.com. See you next time.

Sol (28:37)
The commentary and opinions available on this podcast are for informational and entertainment purposes only, and not for the purpose of providing legal or psychological advice. You should contact a licensed attorney, coach, or therapist in your state to obtain advice with respect to any particular issue or problem.