Sol (00:01)
Welcome to Coparenting Beyond Conflict. I'm your host, Sol, founder of the BestInterest app for co-parents. At BestInterest and on this podcast, my goal is to help you find peace in the storm. Today, I'm joined by Amanda Singer, family law mediator, attorney, and founder of West Coast Family Mediation. With over 13 years helping couples navigate divorce without stepping foot in a courtroom,

Amanda offers a path that most people don't realize even exists. If you've ever wondered whether there's a better way to reach agreements with your co-parent, one that keeps you in control and out of the judge's hands, this episode is for you. Let's dive in.

Sol (00:39)
Hi Amanda, welcome to the podcast. It's so good having you here today, welcome.

Amanda Singer (00:42)
Thank you so much for having me.

Sol (00:44)
So Amanda, I understand that you are a mediator. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and how you got into this profession?

Amanda Singer (00:51)
Yeah, absolutely. So yes, I work full time as a family law mediator and I run West Coast Family Mediation. I originally got into it because I learned about mediation when I was an undergrad and I took a class on mediation, negotiation and conflict resolution. And it was the first time that I had heard about it as an actual career option. So when I decided that I was ready to go back for law school, I took a few years off after undergrad, I focused on schools

that had an ADR, which is alternative dispute resolution I did my JD at the same time that I also got a Master's in Dispute Resolution, and I did take and pass the bar. I am a licensed attorney. I just don't work with anyone on the litigation side or any representation.

Sol (01:36)
I did some research on you and I found a wonderful quote, you said that "Conflict is normal. We all have it in our lives, but the way we deal with it and how we communicate with each other about it will affect our ability to move forward." And that rings so true to my own personal mission in helping co-parents communicate better with one another

Amanda Singer (01:59)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (01:59)
at

BestInterest and I wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about your perspective on where conflict starts and how that comes into your work.

Amanda Singer (02:06)
Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ One of the things that I consider is conflict is normal even in happy relationships, in marriages that stay together. And honestly, in some ways, when you have zero conflict, that's its own issue within itself, because usually that means that things aren't being discussed and it kind of builds over time. But what I look at is the idea that conflict is going to come up.

it's more about learning about how you handle that. it's also going to depend on past experiences that you've had individually or with this person, So if we're talking about, especially co-parents, those who have either been married or at least been in a relationship together and have a child together, they're going to bring with them whatever has gone on during that relationship into the conflicts that they have.

⁓ as I say to people, even if you had parenting conflicts when you were married, they don't just go away. In fact, they're most of the time gonna get more difficult when you're now trying to have two households and trying to maintain, hopefully some sort of co-parenting together. The best thing that I think people can do is

understanding what the conflict is. Some of that is for them individually. Being able to understand their role in that conflict and understanding how they might react to the other person, what triggers might come from that other person. Then determining, how am I going to deal with this conflict in a constructive manner, both during a divorce process, but also when we're talking about co-parents going forward, because depending on the age of kids, when you divorce, that can be a long time.

Sol (03:38)
Yeah, I really appreciate the way you frame that, that it's so important to learn how to manage this conflict, but also to learn what's going on inside of you so that you can rise above that, because if we're holding resentments, then it's going to show up in the way we communicate and in our conflicts. There are different views on mediation and

Amanda Singer (03:52)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (03:59)
I'd like to dig into a little bit more. I know here in Marin, California, we have a mandatory mediation session for family court decisions. At times it's almost as if that mediation session, while well-intentioned, is the checkbox that you make before you go into litigating.

Amanda Singer (04:09)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (04:17)
And I assume you don't see mediation that way. Can you tell us a little bit more about how mediation can really play a bigger role in this type of conflict?

Amanda Singer (04:17)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. I look at mediation as hopefully and potentially the only process or option that that couple is going to go through. So what you're talking about, as you said, is more of that, "OK, we have to do this, we're going to check the box" versus the clients that we work with are saying, "we don't want to go to court at all. We would really prefer to keep this decision making out of a judge's hands, out of court,

keep that control and be able to work together to do so."

For us, when we work with clients, we're doing the whole process for them from start to finish because they still have to have a court case. I have filed cases in Marin, so I do actually know what you're talking about ⁓ with what they have, because that's not the same for every county. I'm in San Diego, although I work with clients all throughout California, every county is a little bit different in what they require. But when we're doing mediation, people are usually coming to us to help them with that whole process. So we're taking care of drafting and filing their court documents,

and we're meeting with them for mediation. And with that, it's anywhere from, two or three mediation sessions, up to many more than that, depending on what the issues are that we're discussing. But we talk about everything. So we talk about parenting plan. If there's minor children, that's definitely the first thing that we start with. Then we're talking about support, so child support and or spousal support. And we're talking about the division of their assets and debts, their financial picture.

They're able, through us, to reach agreements, as long as we can reach agreements on everything. And then we're drafting a settlement agreement and getting that filed with the court. So instead of "okay, well, we're just gonna try this out," the goal is that they never have to step foot in court. Some of them have attorneys, they might bring those attorneys to mediation or use them as a consulting attorney outside of mediation.

But they're not doing everything just through attorneys and having to wait for court hearings and everything that goes along.

Sol (06:19)
And so do I understand correctly that, I'm sure it changes, but people are reaching out to you directly rather than going through an attorney necessarily. They're saying, "we want to mediate this."

Amanda Singer (06:28)
Yes,

That's correct. I get referrals from attorneys. I have relationships with a lot of attorneys, but the clients are the ones choosing the mediator in that situation. Every so often I'll have represented clients where an attorney might, but it is a little bit different, like you're saying, because the clients have control over that decision-making and

I will speak with attorneys if they have them and they want me to, but our focus is really on the clients themselves. One of the big benefits I think with mediation is keeping control, is being able to make those decisions for yourself and be in control of that outcome. So my focus is on the clients themselves.

Sol (07:06)
I see, yeah, I could imagine that being a positive for a lot of parents being able to keep the control and the privacy. One thing that's ringing in my ear, you mentioned that you get referrals from attorneys and it makes me wonder, what is the ideal ex-couple that are coming to you where mediation works well?

Amanda Singer (07:24)
I think mediation works for a lot more couples than realize it. And that's just because not everyone knows it's an option. They may think, I just have to try this or I'm just going to give it a shot. But they're not realizing what actually can happen through mediation. So I do think that. But if I'm looking at what's that ideal client for mediation, I think it is though that couple who

is committed to staying out of court. And with that, it doesn't mean that they have to agree on anything, but they have to both agree on doing mediation. So it's the idea of them saying, we really don't want to go to court, spend a lot of money, fight, and have somebody else tell us what to do, but we want to work this out. We want to do it with somebody who

understands the parenting, the finances, the legal side of things, all of those different pieces to be able to help them through the process. I know in San Diego, mediation is, I'd say, very prevalent. There's a lot of mediators and there's more people mediating. But even then, I still talk with prospective clients who don't really understand what it is. A lot of times it is just around that education piece of

what mediation looks like and, will this work for you? And I think that it won't work for everyone, but it works for more people than I think sometimes realize it. Is mediation as prevalent in Marin outside of kind of the court mandated?

Sol (08:45)
I'm not actually sure the numbers. I think maybe in counties where there is a recommending mediator, I wonder if maybe there is less mediation available because that's sort of the default. It's just a hypothesis. I was thinking there's probably clients, where mediation doesn't work.

Amanda Singer (08:58)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (09:04)
A lot of listeners to this podcast find themselves in a pretty high conflict situation. And they might doubt that mediation is an option for them. It might sound nice, but they might rule it out. I'm curious what you would say to that in terms of, how might you get your ex to agree to going this route versus the more traditional 'everyone hires a bulldog attorney' and then we

Amanda Singer (09:14)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Sol (09:27)
battle it out for years.

Amanda Singer (09:28)
Yeah, I have that conversation a lot of times because one person might reach out first to us and understand our services. Then they're like, well, how do I get my spouse or my co-parent to agree? The best piece of advice that I usually give is asking them, what's most important to the other person? And I'll elaborate what I mean by that is that for some people, the money, the finances is the biggest aspect. For other people,

it's not fighting, it's not having that conflict. For others, it's wanting to make their own decisions. If you can understand what's important to the other person, then that's what I say to focus on. For instance, if it is somebody who it's like, yeah, they don't want to spend a lot of money, they know that attorneys are expensive, then I'll say, well, let's focus on that. Focus on:

mediation is always going to be less expensive. For our services, we do a lot of flat fees, so there's certainty going into it. But even those times that we work hourly, we are always way lower billing than attorneys are. And there's one of us, so you're not each paying your attorney to talk back and forth every time something happens. That's what I advise is, think about what's going to be most

convincing for them and what's most important. Then there's ways to build that in to how you have that discussion.

Sol (10:44)
Yeah, and so you're at the mediation table, you've made all the big important decisions. These two individuals are now going to separate and split and then become co-parents. I'm curious about that. For you, is that your end of connection with them or do you help them create the system that makes sure that that relationship ⁓ succeeds?

Amanda Singer (11:06)
a great question. I would love ⁓ if more people had more of an ongoing relationship to be able to know, what's working? What's not? It depends on the couple themselves. Some of them are going to take their parenting plan, they're going to go and we're never going to hear from them again. That being said, I do have a fair number of clients who return back to us if something comes up.

It could be that child support needs to be modified because that's one that can often come up. But it's also just that either something isn't working in their parenting plan, kids ages have changed, they've gotten older and they're like, we need to modify. And for some people they can have those conversations on their own. It's fine. There's no issues. For other people, that's not going to work.

They need a neutral third party to come back in. And they'll come back because they know we know their story. We know their situation. Even if time has passed, we know enough from before and they can fill us in on things that have It really depends on the couples themselves. One of the other things that I will often advise for co-parents is some kind of co-parent counseling. This

is about how you guys continue as a co-parent and sometimes that can be done better with a co-parenting therapist than even in mediation. Then outside of that the other thing is we are always trying to provide resources to clients. I send out a newsletter monthly and a lot of our clients stay on it because we

provide updates. Sometimes I'll hear back from them of just how things are going or a challenge that they've faced in co-parenting.

Sol (12:30)
That's great. You mentioned about how a lot of times, co-parents enter into parental agreements and then their kids grow up and then the unexpected happens. What are some agreements that you see are often missing from parenting agreements that really should be thought about earlier?

Amanda Singer (12:46)
The big thing is when kids are really young. So let's talk about elementary school for sure, but even the really little ones, my daughter's two and a half. We're not thinking about the things that you're dealing with when you have teenagers. I think a lot of times when the kids are really little, that's what they focus on. That's what the mediator focuses on or their attorneys are going to focus on is, "what's going on now? Let's do a schedule. Let's do holidays."

And that's kind of it. When do I get to talk to them? Or what does travel potentially look like? But they focus on the age that the kids are then. So I think the things that do need to be talked about and thought about are, again, how things might change as they get older. Do you want to change the amount of time that kids can go away from one parent? That may be different when you've got a three or four-year-old versus when they're 10, 11, 12, and even older.

it's building in different step ups or different kind of changes throughout. But it's also just some of the topics that come up. Most people when they have a five year old aren't thinking about what happens when my child starts driving. What does that look like? I'm of the mind that we're not gonna get it all done.

We're not gonna put an agreement in place now that is gonna be exactly what you want when they turn 16 and start driving. But we can put in place ways in which they know how to discuss those items when they come up and how are they gonna deal with them. And the biggest piece is, if you're not sure about exactly what you might wanna do at that time, putting a framework together of how you're going to deal with it, even if it's just that you are gonna come back to mediation and you know that that's an option.

I think that's really important. The other thing that I'm seeing a lot more now, and I'd be curious to see what you see about this with co-parents, is screen time, social media, phones. This just wasn't as big of a deal even a few years ago. Those were things that we've updated our parenting plan discussions now. But again, they're not always thinking about it when the kids are really little of what they're gonna wanna do as they get older.

Sol (14:43)
appreciated your perspective that it's really more about creating the framework where ongoing changes can be evaluated in a sane way that doesn't require court intervention because like you said, you can't expect the future. Things are changing so fast with technology, AI. We're going to have these decisions as parents throughout the course of our kids' lives.

Amanda Singer (14:52)
You know.

Mm-hmm

Sol (15:05)
It's important to be able to come back to the table and make agreements well. Circling back to this high conflict case, when you are sitting across from a couple and one you identify maybe as the more controlling, outspoken individual and the other one maybe is little shyer or less able to set boundaries,

Amanda Singer (15:10)
Yeah, absolutely.

Sol (15:25)
do you see that in your mediation sessions and what do you do to navigate that dynamic to ensure both parents are equally, their needs are met?

Amanda Singer (15:34)
There's a couple different things that we do. One of them is when we're working with clients on our flat fee packages, so doing the whole process, we start off with a one hour individual meeting with each of them. We call it a preliminary planning session. I find that that's an opportunity for me as the mediator to really ask some questions and understand more about their dynamics as a couple, as a family, things that relate to the kids and other issues.

Then when we meet together jointly, I'm able to know, what are some of those things that I do need to manage? Having those individual meetings can really be helpful because otherwise you may have one person who does kind of control that. The other part of it is that as the neutral third party, I am there to help try to balance that power imbalance if there is.

And that can be something as simple as just being aware of how much each person is talking. Is one person interrupting the other person all the time, not giving them an opportunity to speak or just taking more of the air time, then I'm going to be aware of asking more pointed, directed questions to each of them individually and making sure that I'm getting that information from, especially the person who might be less inclined to speak up. So I'll ask them specifically:

"And what do you think about that? What do you want to share?" Then the last thing I would say is there are times during joint meetings where I find that it's helpful to separate out into an individual meeting to give somebody the opportunity to share something that maybe they're just not comfortable expressing in front of their co-parent, or they just want to ask questions, or I can sometimes get it out of them, kind of pull out the answers a little bit better.

I always leave that open as a possibility as well.

Sol (17:14)
Got it. I'm sure you experienced situations of triangulation where you're being pulled in certain directions and maybe the word narcissist is thrown out. How do you as a professional navigate that high conflict dynamic?

Amanda Singer (17:27)
Some of it is almost a second nature now because I've been doing it for so long. I've been mediating for over 13 years now. That is just something I'm very used to doing. I care very much about my clients and the outcome and what happens, but I can't care more than the clients do, and so this is still their

family, their life, their case. I had a mediator I once knew who would say, "it's not my monkey, it's not my circus." is their thing. Sometimes that allows me to keep that outside perspective. The other thing that I always say in any couple is there's always two perspectives and neither of them are giving me the truth of what's actually going on.

You've got two parents that are in mediation and they're both gonna tell me things from their perspectives. I look at it as, neither is fully telling me the truth of what's going on in this. If you're keeping some of that openness, always questioning everything and I know that I never am gonna know everything that's actually going on, and the truth in a sense.

I find that I'm less likely to get drawn in by one person who wants you to believe their truth.

Sol (18:34)
that makes

Sol (18:36)
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get with code Beyond10. Link in the show notes.

Sol AI (18:58)
And now, back to the show.

Sol (19:00)
Now switching gears to the larger family dynamics at play, do you ever have a blended family dynamic where the step-parent wants to join the mediation? Does that ever make sense or do you generally just work with the couple?

Amanda Singer (19:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I have done blended family mediation. I refer to it a little bit differently. Usually it's not like the divorce itself. It's usually after. They're now co-parenting and now you're bringing new partners into the equation and they want to be involved in the conversation. And as long as everyone's got to agree. So it's got to be something that everyone agrees that

Sol (19:22)
Sure.

Amanda Singer (19:37)
new husband, new wife, partner, whatever it is, can be a part of that conversation. But sometimes I think that it actually, helps. It depends on kind of the level of involvement of this other person. But a lot of times if they're not there, they're

coming into the conversation, but they're not actually there. It's almost better to bring them into the conversation because then you get everyone on the same page. Because otherwise what happens is, let's say you've got mom and dad and mom goes back to her new spouse, and she tells him everything that happened in mediation from her perspective.

Which as we just talked about is not exactly necessarily what happened. It's the way she perceived it to happen. Now her new spouse might be very angry at, ex-husband over here because of how she felt about it. Well, if we can get everyone into the same room to have a conversation, a lot of times they've just never discussed it and, they've never had those conversations.

If we can focus on the kids and ways to make sure that this is what we're talking about. We're not talking about their relationship anymore. We're not talking about the past. We're talking about what's going on with the kids now and how do we make sure they now have, I like to refer to them as bonus parents, not step parents. How do we look at that as this is the best possible situation for the kids?

Sol (20:56)
I love that. The introduction of a new partner into that dynamic can often be a flashpoint for these relationships. I'm curious if you have helped parents through that flashpoint. What sorts of things come up and how do you find resolving it?

Amanda Singer (21:15)
I have. I also, to the point about things we talk about that might not be happening yet, I like to talk about what happens with future partners and the kids

in mediation. Sometimes we're at a point where they already have new partners. Maybe that was part of the breakdown of the marriage and that's always its own kind of dynamic as well. But when it comes up in future co-parenting, really the biggest thing that I like to focus on is, this is about the kids. Because a lot of times the emotions that come in with new partners, the conflict in the emotion isn't really about the fact that

they hate this new person, it's just about the fact that there is a new person. That sometimes in and of itself just brings up old emotions. The conversation that we really focus on is, we're always talking about what's in the best interest of the kids. And if we're talking about new relationships, new partners, how does this affect the kids? And how do we do it in a way

that affects them, at least from a negative standpoint, the least amount possible? And being open to having those conversations, being open to understanding when we're talking about maybe some guidelines with new partners or things like that, it isn't about saying - because people will say, they can't control who I date, or who's in my life.

And I always say no, they're not controlling who you date and who's in your life. We're just putting in place some guidelines around how does that relate to the kids. If there's somebody that you're dating and you never want to introduce the kids to, this never is an issue. But if you're bringing somebody into the kids' lives, that needs to be discussed and just understood of what it's going to look like. And I think that the hardest conversations for that are when there's some kind of past, whether it was an affair from during the marriage,

or whether it was somebody they knew, because it's the emotions outside of the kids.

Sol (23:03)
Drawing upon an earlier point you made on that topic of the resentment that we carry sometimes into the mediation room, I'm curious how mediation, it bring in the emotions or do you ever recommend someone go to therapy to work on these issues? How does it differ from the family court system and how emotions are handled?

Amanda Singer (23:08)
Mm-hmm.

I'm going to say yes to both of your questions because one, I would say that yes, emotions are a part of mediation. ⁓ And that's really, one of the big things is that the family court system, they don't have the time, they don't have the resources to actually dig into anything related to the emotions and care about what that is.

In mediation, it's gonna be a part of it. And I know that it is because it's important to the clients. One of the things though that I'm always very clear with clients is, I'm not a therapist. That's not my background. That's not where I am. While we're talking about emotions, we're not gonna talk about it from a therapeutic lens. To your second question, a hundred percent. If I could, I would require that all of my clients in mediation have a therapist as well.

Because you can see the I can tell the difference of clients who have either worked with a therapist for a long time or maybe just starting with someone in the mediation because they can regulate themselves better in the sessions. They come more prepared. I was actually just talking about this last week. I was putting on a presentation for therapists, but I spoke alongside an individual therapist and a couples therapist and that came up.

Just the idea of what can be done in individual therapy, in couples therapy that can make mediation easier? And what are you gonna see in mediation that will then show up there as well?

Sol (24:40)
That's beautiful that those with therapists or a therapeutic background, it probably results in better outcomes for your mediation with them.

Amanda Singer (24:50)
Yeah,

yeah, absolutely. As I'm sure you know, that's part of the issue with the family court system, is that they're not considering any of that. I don't know, any stories or experience that you have there.

Sol (24:59)
Yeah,

no, it's very clear that they just like go, none of us have emotions, which is not true. Yeah.

Amanda Singer (25:07)
It's true. Unfortunately, I think a lot of attorneys do that. I have

known attorneys who have been like, nope, I don't deal with emotions. I know one attorney once who was like, "do you see any tissues in this office? No, and it's because I'm not your therapist. You shouldn't be crying in my office." Yes, the therapist is the better person to handle it, but you can't say to somebody "this isn't an emotional process."

Sol (25:27)
It's, such a salient point that we walk into these rooms, we walk into the courtroom, we're human beings, we have emotions, we have the past, and that past is playing into the way we're interacting, what we're fighting for, what we're saying. It's so important to dig into that so that we can show up more regulated, calmer, and just more able to communicate what we want to say.

Amanda Singer (25:40)
Mm. Mm.

Yeah, absolutely.

Sol (25:51)
So you mentioned about the kids and obviously that's a really important topic and I'm curious from your perspective... children probably don't often show up at your table, ⁓ especially if they're young, but they're still there, they're still present. What you think children would say if they were there to their parents?

Amanda Singer (26:00)
Mm.

Ooh, that's a good one. Have you seen the video that's up from the kids' perspective, Split?

Sol (26:14)
I have,

I had one of the co-creators of that on our podcast. Yes. Yeah.

Amanda Singer (26:20)
Nice. Yeah,

that was just the first thing that came to my mind. But yeah, I mean, you're correct. I very rarely hear from the kids, if ever. The only times that I've ever had kids' involvement in mediation, they've been teenagers. They've been much older. But, when I think about what would the kids say? The kids just want to see their parents happy. They don't want to see them fighting.

They also just want to know that they're still loved, they want to know in some ways, although it's a big change, that there's going to be the least amount of change as possible. There is just the idea that of course change is happening, but how do you keep some constant for

the kids? That doesn't have to be a home because a lot of times people think that 'we've got to keep the house for the kids.' That's a financial conversation, but it isn't necessarily it is does it mean that you're keeping their furniture, you're making sure that if you're moving... I have a colleague here who has a moving business, but one of the things that they help people with is

let's say you've got a kid who wants their room set up a specific way, they'll take pictures and help you when you move, make sure that it's set up in that way. There's little things that can be done that just may make the kids feel, feel, 'okay, amongst all this change, I still have certain constants.'

Sol (27:31)
Hmm, I love that. Now, do I understand correctly that you also do premarital mediation?

Amanda Singer (27:32)
Yeah.

I do, yeah, I do a lot of that. I enjoy that.

Sol (27:39)
That's not a topic that I'm super familiar with. Can you tell us a little bit more about how that works and what that looks like?

Amanda Singer (27:46)
Yeah, so other end of the spectrum, working with clients who are getting married. And I think people know what a prenup is or hear a prenup, but a lot of times their idea of what a prenup is comes from media, music. We see sports or celebrities, things like that. A lot of times may think, why would I ever need one or what is that?

Premarital mediation is really using the idea of mediation to work with couples when they're getting married to put together a premarital agreement. Means the same thing as a prenup, but just a kind of different ring to it first off. And so with premarital mediation, the idea is usually if one person wants a prenup, they're gonna go to an attorney.

That attorney is going to talk to only that person and they're going to draft something up that usually is really just protecting one person because it's whoever went to them and said, "okay, well, I have these assets." And oftentimes the fiance, the other person may not know that it's going on or maybe if they do, they don't really understand what to expect and what's going to come out of it. And when they get a draft of the initial prenup from their fiance's attorney,

they don't even really know what's in it or understand. And sometimes they feel like, wait a second. Is this just because they don't trust me? You know, all of that.

With premarital mediation as a mediator, as a neutral third party, I'm able to sit down with both of them together. So that's the first big difference is I'm bringing both of them into my office together and saying, okay, let's have a conversation. And so, especially when one person is hesitant about putting together a prenup, it's really great to do that and get everyone on the same page together. But even if both of them are on board with it, it's a better way to have the conversations. Cause I look at it from establishing

communication early on. Making sure that they're talking about all the financial stuff that they should. And they're deciding, again, this is the control aspect. Do you want your marriage to follow the laws of the state that you live in? In California, there's California Family Code, and it dictates how things are dealt with during your marriage, whether you know it or not. And I think that's the thing is a lot of people don't even know.

When people get married, they're not expecting to think about, what does this mean legally for me? So we talk about it. And sometimes people want to follow some of the laws and sometimes they want to change things. In mediation, we'll have those conversations. Most people will then want to draft a premarital agreement. So we draft that and then they take that to their own attorneys to review. But at that point,

they've already discussed it. They know what they want it to look like. And the attorneys are just signing off on it for that.

Sol (30:17)
That's so cool. I really appreciate learning about that frame. Speaking both personally, but also I'm sure for many of our listeners, having gone through divorce, I think a lot of us look back and say, "I wish we had spent a little bit more time thinking this through before having to unravel it." As a culture, I really wish that we would do that, where we would have these deep discussions and almost

Amanda Singer (30:21)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Sol (30:40)
do the divorce in the reverse where we make the discussion while we're still in love. This is what happens if we are not in love in the future. So we don't have to have that fight when we actually kind of hate each other. ⁓

Amanda Singer (30:42)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

That's exactly what I say to people because I have the experience on the divorce side to be like, I hope you never end up there, but the divorce rate is still where it is and not everyone is going to stay together. And so, do you want to talk about this? Like you said, when you like each other, you're in love with each other and you don't want to screw the other person over, which unfortunately isn't always that way when you're going through the divorce.

I work with people who went through a first divorce. This may be a second or third marriage and they're like, well, I went through that and I don't want to go through that again. So I'm not getting married unless we talk about this and have an agreement. But I also am finding just more people are getting married later.

My husband and I, when we got married, we'd been together for many years already, but we were both older. We both had assets and businesses and things to consider, and we do have a prenup because that was People are getting married older and seeing the people whose parents got divorced. So they went through it as kids and they're like, "no, I'm not doing that." So they want to consider, how can we put something in place now?

Sol (31:58)
Love that. So now for our lightning round. I'm going to read a sentence and you'll fill in the blank and maybe we'll discuss it or maybe we'll move on. Ready? Okay. The biggest mistake co-parents make when conflict first starts is...

Amanda Singer (32:13)
not getting help with it.

Sol (32:14)
Hmm. So what would be a good first step?

Amanda Singer (32:15)
I think.

Yeah, I think that whether that's a therapist, whether that's a mediator, whatever that is, it's the idea of it's okay to not be able to do it all yourself. Being able to say "hey, this conflict starting, let's figure out who can help us with it so that we can put in place some better foundation." So maybe the next time you don't actually need help.

But if you don't get help, oftentimes they're just spinning their wheels and the conflict just gets bigger and bigger.

Sol (32:47)
Got it. Mediation works best when both parents understand...

Amanda Singer (32:52)
the kids just want both their parents there. They want loving parents. And some of the things you care about, they don't care.

Sol (32:59)
Got it. The thing I wish every family attorney would tell their clients is...

Amanda Singer (33:04)
more of a realistic understanding of what court looks like and what the judges do and don't care about.

Sol (33:11)
That is such a good point. You think that they would communicate that, but it doesn't seem like they often do.

Amanda Singer (33:12)
you agree with that.

I know a lot of great attorneys, so I'm not saying this about all attorneys, but I think that attorneys are sometimes so focused on what's best for just their client. They're not looking at the bigger picture and they're not always considering what really could happen. The good attorneys do, but there's a lot that I think don't.

Sol (33:36)
A lot of parents say that they're fighting for the kids, but sometimes what they're really doing is...

Amanda Singer (33:41)
fighting past battles, to win past battles.

Sol (33:44)
Yeah. Peace in a co-parenting relationship starts when...

Amanda Singer (33:48)
they start with peace. So starting with mediation would be my answer there. Yeah.

Sol (33:52)
Make sense. The best

moment in my job is...

Amanda Singer (33:57)
seeing when, especially co-parents, are able to speak respectfully with each other and put together agreements and foundations of how they're gonna deal with things in the future. And you can just tell that they're really both focused on the kids.

Sol (34:13)
If I could give one gift to every divorcing couple, it would be...

Amanda Singer (34:17)
time. I think that divorce takes a lot of time from people and that oftentimes takes time away from their kids too.

Sol (34:25)
I want to underline that. I really like that answer because from my perspective, looking back at my own divorce, it was really intense and it brings up so much deep survival instinct and trauma that you lose sight on what's happening with your kids. You can almost have a blackout of those years, that really are very precious years.

Amanda Singer (34:48)
Yeah.

Sol (34:48)
So

I love that offer of the gift of time. Amanda, for a parent who is listening right now and maybe they're just really feeling like they're in the fight of their lives and they're dreading that next text message, they're not feeling present, what's one thing that you might offer them that they could use today?

Amanda Singer (35:08)
Like I said before is, getting some kind of help. And that doesn't have to be a big thing. It doesn't have to be a therapist, a mediator, that could be a co-parenting app. That could be resources, like videos or articles, just arming yourself with information, or something that helps you, knowing that you don't have to do it all on your own.

Sol (35:26)
For listeners who would like to connect with you, Amanda, and learn more about what you do, how can they reach out to you?

Amanda Singer (35:32)
Yeah, so best place online is we're at WestCoastFamilyMediation.com. We have a lot of resources on our website, blog articles, videos, all of that. Contact information, phone number, everything is there. We're always happy to speak with people just to see what they need, even if mediation doesn't end up being the right fit for them.

Sol (35:52)
Amanda, thanks so much for joining us today. It's been such a pleasure having you on and thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.

Amanda Singer (35:57)
Thank you so much for having me.

Sol (35:58)
Thanks for joining us on the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. To support our show, subscribe or leave a rating. Links for all books and resources mentioned on appear in our show notes or on CoparentingBeyondConflict.com. See you next time.

Sol (36:15)
The commentary and opinions available on this podcast are for informational and entertainment purposes only, and not for the purpose of providing legal or psychological advice. You should contact a licensed attorney, coach, or therapist in your state to obtain advice with respect to any particular issue or problem.