Sol (00:02)
Welcome to Coparenting Beyond Conflict. I'm your host, Sol, founder of the BestInterest app for co-parents. At BestInterest and on this podcast, my goal is to help you find peace in the storm. Today I'm joined by Ksenia Muench, a high conflict divorce coach and creator of the High Conflict Playbook. Drawing on her own divorce experience and years of coaching women through difficult separations, Ksenia helps parents replace emotional reactivity with clarity,

discipline and strategy. I'm excited for this conversation because Ksenia challenges us to see high conflict divorce for what it often is: post-separation abuse that continues through communication, finances, the courts, and even the children. If every message from your ex feels designed to provoke you, or you're wondering how to protect yourself without letting the conflict define your life, this episode is for you. Let's dive in.

Sol (00:55)
Ksenia, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast. It's so good to have you here today.

Ksenia Muench (01:00)
Thank you so much, Sol, for having me. I always enjoy talking to you.

Sol (01:03)
Yeah, and I as well. Before we begin, invite us into a moment in your week where you felt completely at peace.

Ksenia Muench (01:11)
That one is is funny because my peace is not something that some people consider a peace. My peace is at the gym. That's the only time when I can fully disconnect, when I can unload my mental noise. The only way I can do it is I do CrossFit. CrossFit is something that people see like when you're on the floor and shirtless, I don't do shirtless. But when we're on the floor, we're not pretending, it's not for show. It's because we truly cannot breathe.

And we just exerted ourselves to the point we do not know what's up and what's down. That's the only way that I can disconnect and that's where I find peace. So gym for me is non-negotiable and I go there every day and not for side effect, the body you get. I go there because that's the place where I don't think about anything else but breathing and how

bad the workout is, and how was the best part of my day afterwards? It's really bizarre way to feel peace, but that's where I'm at.

Sol (02:02)
You know, that makes a lot of sense. We talk about flow state, and that's a form of flow where you're just so focused on what's happening in the moment, you're not distracted by thoughts and concerns and plans. Yeah.

Ksenia Muench (02:12)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because all of a

sudden, like all your effort is put into something different. Physical pain distracts from emotional turmoil. And that's the only way I find I can reset for whatever challenges we experience in everyday life. And once you're divorced, then especially a high conflict dynamic, you know that that part

never sleeps, so that's the only way I can disconnect. And I tried meditation, I tried yoga and all I'm thinking, my gosh, this is boring. Is this gonna be done? When is the thirtieth second? Is it over? My brain starts over spinning even more, so it doesn't work for me. I'm so bored.

Sol (02:48)
It's so good to find something that works for you to get to peace. Especially when you're dealing with so much challenge in your larger life or you're going

Ksenia Muench (02:57)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (02:57)
divorce. It's important to find those moments of peace, whatever works for you. So I'm glad that you found that for yourself.

Ksenia Muench (03:02)
Yeah. What about you? What do you like to do to find peace?

Sol (03:06)
That's a great question.

I love crystals actually. So a lot of times I will meditate

holding a crystal and just feeling feeling what that feels like. Just putting my mind into the crystal.

Ksenia Muench (03:18)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (03:19)
as hippy dippy as that sounds, it just really works well for me.

Ksenia Muench (03:22)
Which

one is your favorite?

Or do you alternate crystals based on emotional state?

Sol (03:25)
I have a favorite

crystal that yes, believe it or not I do. It's a quartz crystal. and

Ksenia Muench (03:31)
Okay. Rose quartz?

White quartz, what kind? Do you have a nickname for it? Because we're going

Sol (03:35)
It's a clear

quartz crystal and I do not have a nickname for it now, but yeah, it sits on my mantle. Are

Ksenia Muench (03:43)
I don't have a crystal collection. I have amethyst that I do have in my bedroom and I have a gigantic one by by my fireplace, but I also have some crystal jewelry that sometimes I wear based on the way I'm feeling and what's calling me. I feel like there is almost like a call, a pull or

what you should be wearing and or should be nearby. So I have those.

Sol (04:06)
Yeah, I completely relate to that. We could do a whole episode on on such things. but I also want to dive into a bit of your story.

I understand that, Ksenia, you you were living a quote unquote dream life and then

divorce came your way. And

do I understand correctly that it was a perfectly happy, easeful divorce?

Ksenia Muench (04:25)
It was wonderful. So I just decided to do high conflict just because I mean mine was boring. So let's make it more exciting, right? Sarcasm is my second language, so that was a complete joke. My marriage, I actually did think it was okay. I got married in 2004. 2015 was the first time

something got on my radar and I was like, it just doesn't feel right. Something is so off. And for the first time, I started listening to my body more. I'm sure my body was speaking to me before. I was like, I'm too busy with kids, I'm too busy with this, and he's just tired, and this is how families are, and there are always justifications. But 2015 there were some events that cracked me open, and it took another five years

for me mentally to solidify how messed up the situation and unhealthy it was. And after that, once I realized that I was done, and it was so stupid. What cracked everything open was a Valentine's Day card. When you think about it, it's like what the hell? It truly was.

You you're a former Googler, so you understand how computer systems work. And for me, I'm thinking of the movie The Net. I was seeing that card and all of a sudden everything just dropped off and I'm like, that's what it is. And I took six months after that to file for divorce and leave. And that's when everything exploded. The first two, three months were okay because everybody was like in La La Land, or it's freedom, and you kind of experience

"Ooh, I haven't done this in like 16 years. Let's go." And I can do it now, no guilt. And then the reality sets in. And that one was brutal. I hate to break it to lot of people, the reality is still brutal. It just how I handle it or manage it or how I experience it is different because whether I got numb, I definitely got smarter and more strategic about it, I know how to play the game, but it just affects me less. It's

just became a part of my life. There is this background that still exists, but it no longer defines me. That's how I got into high conflict coaching.

Sol (06:22)
I resonate with what you said there about how you know looking back at the decision to get divorced, it was not an easy decision, right? I don't think

Ksenia Muench (06:31)
No.

Sol (06:31)
anyone approaches this on a whim. It's well considered, typically. And yet I guess I didn't know what I was walking into in terms of how challenging it really would be.

Looking back also, having known all of that,

I wouldn't have chosen a different path. So it has been a challenging path, but yet it also has been a strengthening path. And

I've grown and I've matured as a human because of it. And I appreciate all of that much as you've gone through.

Ksenia Muench (06:58)
Yes. Sol, so question for if you knew how difficult and challenging that would be, would you still do it?

Sol (07:06)
I would do it in a different way, but I definitely would do it. I think the thing that I had wished I had in the beginning was someone like yourself who had had the experience and now is teaching from that experience, and I went into it blind without really knowing

a lot of what to expect. Before this interview you were talking a bit about parenting plans and how things change when your kids grow older

and

I would have written the parenting plan so much differently.

When you're writing parenting plans and your kids are two and four, you've no idea what it's gonna be like even you

know when they're in school, let alone when they're teenagers. So

you don't think about those things and also all the complexities that come along with the unanticipated high conflict nature that can sometimes

befall us.

Ksenia Muench (07:51)
Mm-hmm. When we write co-parenting plans, we are very nearsighted. We are truly stuck in the present moment. This is where we're at. And also we have, in a way, hope that both parents do what's best for the children, and eventually it's just a divorce stress, it will settle. So there is still sort of naive

approach that it's gonna get easier. It's not gonna be escalating. But as you're aware in high conflict dynamic, instead of de-escalating, it escalates and it goes the opposite way. And that's again that one surprise I didn't know was coming my way. I'm pretty sure you didn't know it was coming your way. So it's when you're the same with my co-parenting plan. There are so many things I wish I didn't include. And there are so many things I wish I did. So I don't have to

do it or figure it out at this time. You know, as kids are almost adults.

Sol (08:44)
Yeah, that's so interesting how that goes. I have this pet theory that parenting plans should start with a more parallel parenting approach for everyone and then

have built-in checks, kind of like what you might do in an OKR at a business, where you try to meet certain goals, and then when you meet those certain goals, then you're rewarded with increased

Ksenia Muench (09:05)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (09:06)
collaboration, increased

engagement.

Ksenia Muench (09:08)
Yes.

Sol (09:09)
But if you don't get to those places where you can start trusting one another again, you just stick with the parallel approach and that works, right?

Ksenia Muench (09:17)
Usually. But as you know, our court system and the society, and everybody pressures us, you have to get along for the kids' best interest. But the kids' best interest for the parents not to fight like cat and dogs and for the kids not to feel the conflict. And we start the opposite. I talked to one of co-parenting experts and she's like, it's rubber band effect. You were together, and then all of a sudden divorce happened, and you were like, whoop.

So you're no longer on the same page about co-parenting. And if I was the one who was mostly with kids, now I'm like, what the hell is happening here? And if you're forcing us to get along, guess what? It's like magnets, but the opposite side. We keep pushing each other away. We think we are doing something best for the kids, in their best interest. And it creates more conflict. It creates more drama. And now kids are caught in the middle and it just becomes such a huge mess.

And I agree with you. If you minimize engagement and interaction between parents, at least at the beginning, and then they can figure out if they want to collaborate more or less. In high conflict, usually less is more. That would be a much better way to start off than like high conflict co-parenting class that I had to take twice. Do you think it helped? No. How many was it?

Twenty four hours? No, it didn't help. But I took it twice. I have certificate.

Sol (10:28)
Well, I also understand that you have an MBA and and a lot of education and so going into this, did any of that background help you in your process?

Ksenia Muench (10:37)
It did. Once I put my emotion aside a little bit. A lot of people say, "Hey, I'm Russian, you're cold blooded." Yeah, I can be. Not because I don't feel feelings. It's just because I can be very cerebral and I can turn off emotions. So divorce I was always approaching as a business division, just family

fell apart and we're just dividing its family business. That's it. So once my emotion came down, once I had a radical acceptance that the other partner is who they are, they're not changing, and that's when I guess my Russian DNA kicked in because I am very strategic. I know the levers, I know how to strategically play the game. And that's when I was able to finalize the divorce within

six months once my training kicked in. Also I am a great negotiator. I do not know if that's my accent. People just think I'm very compelling. So it was very helpful. The MBA training here. I also have the piano training that I got in Russia. I have the the linguistics training. So there were such a

combination of different factors that I was able to to use. But I think the biggest one truly was I did conflict resolution as a minor during my MBA. So that helped quite a bit. But also being a former concert pianist, when you can integrate different parts of your brain and how to make it all play together, I think that really helped to strategize and how to finalize divorce in such a way that it actually got signed.

Sol (12:02)
Interesting. Now

Ksenia Muench (12:03)
Yeah.

Sol (12:03)
you've mentioned the term high conflict divorce and

we kind of throw that term around a lot. What does a high conflict divorce actually look like?

Ksenia Muench (12:12)
I always say high conflict divorce as a codeword for post separation abuse. There is a perpetrator in high conflict dynamic, and there is a victim who is reactive to the tactics and attacks of the former intimate partner who knows them in and out. They know how to press buttons, they know how to get a reaction out of them, and who knows how to make the other partner look as if crazy when in reality they're just responding because

their body receives the message. They know exactly what's happening. When it comes to high conflict divorce, what we're seeing, the court system, the children, finances, assets are all used to continue to control the victim. And the victim continues to be victimized. So what does it look like? it can be refusal to provide information for discovery if you're going through litigation. It can be stalling the process, continuance of motions, it can be

filing groundless motions, that is financial abuse right now, because now you spend more money on defending yourself. It can be allegations that absolutely not supported, but again, you have to prove that that's not true. It can be the children are being alienated and the children are talked a lot of smack about the other parents. And now you have to figure out how not to lose your kids because even though people assume the children will see it,

it's not always the case. In high conflict divorce, I see a lot when children are being alienated and no longer talk to healthy parents. So that is also a reality of it. And also the continuation the letters, the emails. And you and I talked about it, why you created your app for high conflict parents to communicate, because you get those emails and sometimes it's novels and it's just dumping of their thoughts

to you. There is no question, it has nothing to do with children, it's just accusations. It's a way to trigger you. And then another thing it can be stalking, it can be harassment, threats. That's also part of high conflict divorce. I mean, what you think may not happen usually happens in high conflict divorce because all the ugliness, cruelty comes out.

Sol (14:15)
I like the term that you used reactive, right? That

you're the reactive partner in this dance. How does one get to a place where you're less reactive?

Ksenia Muench (14:25)
It's a lot of

internal work. It's a lot of self-growth. It's a lot of understanding why you are responding this way. And it's also a lot of discipline. It's a lot of discipline understanding that this may be used in court against you. This will be used in settlement against you. So whatever you put in writing, whichever you respond, will be twisted into a completely different story and will be presented to attorneys or to the judge.

So once you understand that this is not just the private communication and it will be reviewed, you will be judged, and it can derail your case. That's when you learn just take a step back and not respond. You learn to put your phone down, you learn not to do phone calls, no face-to-face, because whatever happens face-to-face turns into he said, she said, and now

whoever has a more compelling story wins in court. You have to have a very strong support system in terms of your friends. If you're spinning, call them and vent to them, but nothing in writing. Or if you have nothing, put the phone down. If you like to shoot guns, go shoot guns. If you like to go to like a golf range, go hit some balls. Do something to release that pressure valve

so you do not feel the need to put it there. But it's truly discipline and awareness and somewhat healthy fear. You have to learn how to present yourself in court. You have to look good for the court. You have to play the right role. You cannot be reactive no matter how much you're being poked and triggered, and that's a skill. You don't see it immediately. It takes a few missteps.

But you eventually get there, once you see how high the stakes are.

Sol (15:58)
What is a way that

you see parents sabotaging themselves

in court?

Ksenia Muench (16:03)
They get emotional. That's one. using emotional language. You can't be fully dead. You have to be present. The judge has to understand that you're not on drugs or impaired. You have to to be able to rationalize what you are saying, but you cannot be emotional. You cannot be, 'they did this, they did this.' You have to present facts from

only what you were truly a part of. A lot of times people don't understand. They said, like, well, kids said that. No, it's unless you were present there, it's not an admissible evidence. It's hearsay. People a lot of times go in court unprepared thinking that will work. Or they're hoping the witnesses will not be intimidated and the kids can be used as witnesses. Kids can get scared

to testify against the other parent and the testimony will change. So when you go to court, you truly have to be very factual, very present and very controlled and no longer protect the other parent. Because here's the beauty when you're dealing with a high conflict personality, they eventually reveal themselves because there is no longer a buffer.

The things will come out. They cannot hold that mask for that long. And most of the time they make mistakes because they're not as smart as they think they are. They think they're above the law. They think they know the game. But their mistake is them thinking they're above the law and doesn't apply to them. That's what derails their case. So just let them fall on their asses and you just focus on you. That's the biggest thing.

Sol (17:26)
What does that look like when a high conflict person takes the mask off?

Ksenia Muench (17:31)
I actually have seen it's; it's pretty satisfying. They actually become emotional. When they see that the case may not be going one way, they start interjecting. They start sometimes speaking over their attorney, they start yelling, but it's "I I'm the poor soul. You don't understand, Your Honor." They become emotional

because they feel they're losing control. And now it's not over you, it's over them. You can see the mask is slipping when they sometimes do the statements. When they write statements, you can see through them whether it's truly just emotional charge or it's something factual. So they slip because

they think the more words they put, the more effective it's gonna be. But when you strip down the words, there is no content whatsoever. So that's another thing. Strategically, they also reveal themselves when they start filing motions. And the more there are no grounds and the more motions they file, they create a résumé in for the judge. Because the judge, even if the judge is changing, they will see, this was motion filed

at this time, this was motion filed at that time. How did it work out? And them changing attorneys frequently. That's the biggest exposure. Normally people go, let's say two attorneys, three at most. Because let's say you start with the first attorney. I always say the first experience is a pancake. You throw it away. Unless you work with the coach, you do not know what you are walking into, you do not know what you want. So the second attorney, usually the ones you stick with.

After that, it truly comes down to if they continue changing because they want different representation, because they want to show themselves now they're the victim, or look, I can work with women, or look, I can work with men. If they switch attorneys very frequently, that also exposes them. And they don't understand that either. So there are so many ways to read it, and that's why I'm saying it's so satisfying because it's almost like a rap sheet, and you're like,

let's just keep going. You just step aside. I mean, you're still an unwilling participant, but it's extremely satisfying to watch.

Sol (19:28)
So first a story. The first attorney that I hired when I was in that early fear "I have to protect myself" state. He was an absolute douchebag. The worst. And

and at first I was like, he's strong. He's gonna protect me. And then I realized, no, actually this dude's gonna fuck things up. He's

not gonna help me.

He clearly doesn't care about me or us or the family. He's kinda out for himself, so I I fired him with

not a good personality match.

Ksenia Muench (19:55)
And the same was for me. I hired the first attorney because that's all I knew. And I'm like, my gosh, I just need to to file something. I know this person. When I realized it was also not a good match, I did not think my case would be not even as well represented. I felt that attorney could not meet me where I was. And that's who I needed at that time. So I also had to make the switch very, very quickly because it was not the right fit.

But I know that I've seen some attorneys, there are like bulls in a China shop. They come in, create chaos, and then they're fired because more chaos is created, but the damage is done. And also it's already on your résumé again. You had that attorney. It's a skill to choose the right attorney, but also you hire somebody when you do not know. That's a recipe for disaster.

Sol (20:42)
I'm really just stuck on this bull in a china shop. I think it fits so well with Bulldog. There's something funny there.

But how do you how do you recommend your clients choose their attorneys?

Ksenia Muench (20:53)
Well, first you need to understand what what you are going through. You need to name things the way they are. If you're fearing for your safety, do not expect it's gonna be a very easygoing divorce. You have to prepare for a battle. Whether you still can mediate or do collaborative divorce or you have to litigate, you still have to prepare if there's gonna be some resistance. And based on that, you have to talk to the attorney who has experience with that. And outside of experience, you also need to see

how are you feeling with that trend? Do you feel comfortable? You have to have such trust that they have your back. Not a blind trust, but you have to have trust. They have your best interest in mind. And not just to settle or not just charge for billable hours. So a lot of it, it's like almost you have to do gut instinct once you know the targeted skill set that you are looking for for your specific case.

That's a self-reflection and that's an honest look at your situation. Not someone judging you, he's not gonna do it or she's not gonna do it. Let's do honest review of the last few years so you can see a preview of what's to come.

Sol (21:57)
As a co-parent myself, I know how difficult communication can be. That's why I created Best Interest, the co-parenting app that uses advanced AI technology to automatically filter out all negativity, promoting positive communication and helping you create a healthier environment for your family. Try it now and get 10 off with code Beyond10. Link in the show notes.

Sol AI (22:19)
And

now, back to the show.

Sol (22:21)
Tell me a little bit more about your high conflict playbook. How does that work and

how does it help your clients?

Ksenia Muench (22:26)
That one is a good one. I like it. That's my passion project. High Conflict Playbook is basically a framework exclusively for women who do not want to do one on one, but they feel more comfortable being seen, heard, understood in a small group of women. It's an eight week group intensive. We're live on Zoom and we're doing one hour Zoom sessions for eight weeks.

And we're going through high conflict from A to Z. So how to recognize it, the do's and don'ts, what to prepare for, the co-parenting, the boundaries, the apps, communication apps you should be using, what to expect when you're in court. What to expect when you're expecting kind of thing. And then the life after. So how do you rebuild your life knowing that that mess is not

ending. It's gonna continue for years. Parts of us believe they're gonna stop, but in reality it doesn't happen. So we go through all of that. So you understand what you're dealing with, but on top of it, it's not just the signs that we're gonna go through and be like, my gosh, if you see this, that's what it is. We actually create a strategy, an actionable plan for each person in the group.

What they need to do in their specific situation. So it's almost like a group coaching, but again for people who feel more comfortable in a group setting versus one on one.

Sol (23:40)
And then how does this map into the experience of, so we've gone through a high conflict divorce, maybe

Ksenia Muench (23:46)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (23:47)
we were surprised by how heated it got, but we thought,

Ksenia Muench (23:50)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (23:50)
okay, once we cross the finish line, we get our settlement, then we can start cooling down and get just into the swing of co-parenting. That doesn't necessarily happen, does it?

Ksenia Muench (23:58)
It pretty much never happens. I'm not gonna speak in absolute terms, but that was one of the biggest surprises for me because I thought, all right, smooth sailing going forward. Mm mm. It goes for years and years and years. How it shows up after, the most common is non-compliance with the legal settlement. So whatever the divorce decree you agreed to, you will be following and you will be

held accountable to follow it, but the high conflict party usually doesn't because they don't think they need to abide by that. So you have to make a decision, do you go and enforce it or do you let it slide? Even if you decide not to go through court, the other party likes to remind you of their existence. So they will look for ways to re-engage it with you. If they cannot do it

through apps, if they cannot do it face to face, they're gonna use the court system. So they will file motions that they will drag you back into court. They will use children. I've seen a lot of times just they decide to move. And you're like, wait, what? This is what we agree to. What do you do? You go through the attorney. So they create situations where you have to respond.

And even if you don't want to, you will be forced to re-engage with a high conflict party, or they just stop paying or they're late on paying. Whatever the case is, trust me, they will find a way to re-engage with you. And until all ties are cut, and that's usually after kids, after all the financials and I'm talking like alimony and child support disappears, that's when it gets more tricky for them. But until then,

it's gonna keep going. It's truly a fascinating place to be.

Sol (25:32)
I think both you and I we're always looking for ways to help our clients disengage from

Ksenia Muench (25:39)
Yes.

Sol (25:39)
that high conflict nature, right? 'Cause that's

Ksenia Muench (25:42)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (25:42)
when we take back the power, then

Ksenia Muench (25:45)
Yes.

Sol (25:46)
even they can not change at all, but we can learn how to cope.

Ksenia Muench (25:50)
I think the biggest

thing we don't understand how much power we have. We give this power away by reacting, by engaging, but I'm sure you very well aware of Grey Rock. Once you become as boring as grey rock, nothing falls on you. They're not getting anything out of you. I wouldn't say they get bored, they look for other methods, but it is one of the most powerful tools.

Do not answer if there is no question. Do not respond. Do not engage. You cannot control what the other party does. Let them. That's one the only time I will use Let Them theory is, you cannot control what they do. But your boundaries should be absolutely unbreakable. And you have to be again so disciplined and trained in that. And do not give your power away.

How much power do you actually have over those people? Because they want to keep engaging with you. You need to think that they exist with you in their orbit constantly. How miserable is that life?

Sol (26:46)
Yeah, that's fair.

It's interesting that you bring up the Let Them theory because I I read that book with the lens of, you know, a high conflict co parent and I thought, golly, this is a little triggering.

Sometimes, you're in a situation that is really hard to "let them", because

Ksenia Muench (27:00)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (27:01)
of what the family court allows, that sort of thing.

Ksenia Muench (27:03)
You know, maybe court read that book too. So they just let them. No, let them figure it out. Let them do it. But it's true, that book I felt it was somewhat uncomfortable. I can see how it can apply when you protect your own peace. But 'let them', it's almost like allowing other people to bulldoze over you and you just take the high road. And I'm like, No, no, no. I'm ready to take the low road at this point. I'm good there too.

I don't constantly have to be the better bigger person. Not anymore.

Sol (27:27)
But then Gray Rock, I love that concept. I think that it's a

good one to underline for the listeners because what you're doing is you are learning how to become boring. And I don't think

it's the kind of thing where you learn about gray rock and be as boring as a gray rock and suddenly you are. You actually have to get to a place where you are boring. Like you receive

Ksenia Muench (27:48)
Is it?

Sol (27:48)
that message and

and you've you've already done the processing and it no longer is lighting you up, you're no longer getting reactive, and then you can just respond back with a simple okay. Or maybe no response

at all if it doesn't warrant it.

Ksenia Muench (28:00)
Mm-hmm. I'm sure for you it was similar. It took a few years to get to the point because you still get emotionally charged when you see or you read accusations that you know are not true, or you see your children are involved, or I love that. The high conflict personalities love saying that "our children think this is what should be done." Or "everybody thinks you're this," and you're like, Well, what? And you start spinning it until you realize that this is a pile of bullcrap. And you're like,

all right. And you truly become gray rock for you because they're boring. What a lot of people don't understand, high conflict personalities are very predictable, extremely predictable. Once you emotionally disconnect from them, you just see like, okay, hmm, all right.

Sol (28:41)
That's a really good point. Yeah.

It reminds me of what you were saying earlier about being in the courtroom and how the mask will eventually come off. The more you just stay in yourself, stay in your lane, speak your truth, not try to win, but just be present and be honest and do your best. Eventually the truth will win out and then

they're gonna go crazy because at the end of the day

whether or not it's a narcissist, it's all a façade. And that façade

will start cracking, and hidden behind that facade is actually a very reactive person that is pretty weak, not strong at all, but they just have this mask.

Ksenia Muench (29:18)
And how exhausting is it to constantly wear this mask? So that's why I'm saying it eventually slips because what I understood when I was in my relationship, what I see with a lot of my clients is you were the exterior. You were like the door. You were the window curtains for them. So you constantly covered what was happening behind. Now you're gone.

So they will probably try to keep the window clean for a little bit, but eventually it's exhausting, it slips up. And you notice as soon as they partner up with somebody else, they become somebody else because they do not have their own identity. That's the problem with them. They are looking for people. So they become like chameleons. They're with this partner, they become them. They're with you, they become you. They're with somebody else, they become them. It's fluid.

When they think they know you, but they really underestimate you, that's when it starts slipping and you start seeing the emotional response because they're like, crap, I don't have control over that person anymore. And that pisses them off the most.

Sol (30:18)
Speaking of things that you can do to survive when you're dealing with high conflict co-parenting, you earlier mentioned BestInterest. I think AI is a really good solution for this,

or can be. We're starting to see AI come into a lot of different co-parenting apps in different ways. I'm curious if you could speak to technology and where it is today and and how it's falling short and how we can improve for future parents.

Ksenia Muench (30:41)
I think AI is an incredible tool when it comes to communication right now. because you can truly filter your messages so they come across as neutral tones. You give the framework. Here's what you as an operator need to understand. Have a clear framework.

Set it up in AI and say, this is what I need to say, this is what I want to say. And you can write a paragraph, you can say whatever bad words you want to use there. Then AI will filter it out and create maybe just one liner. "No, it doesn't work for me. Thank you." Like maybe that's all it is, right? But AI is such an incredible tool. If you are also torn between decisions, they come in with something and you can put in AI. This is what they're saying, this is what I want.

Help me out here, like finding neutral ground or show me what's reasonable. You can use that as such a neutral party, almost like venting tool, and also helps you stay grounded and not respond reactive.

A lot of times when we exit those type of relationships, we are gaslit, we're manipulated, we do not know what reality is, and we question like, are we crazy? Like that wasn't that bad. What's wrong with me? Why is this happening? When you put in AI, it takes you out of that box that you put yourself in or that you were a captain and it shows you a bigger picture. So you understand exactly what's happening to you. It's not gonna be the same work as therapy, but it gives you almost like a framework

to name things for what they are so you know how to respond accordingly. And I think that is such a beautiful tool. And I wish I spoke more like a human, but again, it's all programming. And it becomes repetitive. But I think using it again for emails, making sure they're neutral, decision making, and just validating what you are feeling is incredible. And if you're spinning at 2 a.m, get on the computer. Claude it.

Sol (32:32)
Ha ha ha.

Ksenia Muench (32:32)
Gemini it,

you know.

Sol (32:34)
I do think that some of these tools can be really good allies in helping us see our way out of what can feel very very lonely to be in these types

Ksenia Muench (32:42)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (32:43)
of situations.

Going back to Grey Rock, like you said, AI in a way can take all of our emotions

and then help us dial that down and just get to the core essence of what

Ksenia Muench (32:55)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (32:56)
we can and should say, and become boring, even

Ksenia Muench (32:59)
Yes.

Sol (33:00)
if we're not there yet emotionally. So

Ksenia Muench (33:02)
Yes, yes.

Sol (33:03)
it can really be very help helpful in relationships.

Ksenia Muench (33:05)
Six years ago when I started going through that, AI was not nearly as prevalent. I don't remember it like ChatGPT or anything. I did not have that buffer. I learned the hard way. I'm sure you did too. But what are your thoughts? We all had those moments, right? You're like,

Sol (33:17)
Ha

Ksenia Muench (33:19)
whoops, unsend, unsend, too late.

Sol (33:21)
Ha ha ha.

Ksenia Muench (33:21)
But let's talk about a little bit of a danger of AI and you're in tech world.

I sometimes think we as humans can start relying on AI way more as a crutch rather than people. And let's talk about the dangers. The way it can show up in a personal life in terms of you isolating yourself, you become 'nobody understands me, just the computer.' What are your thoughts on this?

Sol (33:43)
Hmm.

That's an interesting way. That wasn't the direction I thought you were going to take it.

I think that that's true. It can serve both roles in that AI can help us feel seen. It can help us formulate our thoughts a little bit more. The danger that I see most in in my own life and then also with the co-parents that I work with is that,

especially when you're just using like a model like ChatGPT or something, it can force you down into this rabbit hole that's just for you. I might feed in all of the messages that I've received and I'm gonna seed it with my experiences and ChatGPT is rarely going to say, "no, you're completely wrong, dude."

Ksenia Muench (34:22)
Mm-hmm.

Sol (34:22)
You need

to change your mind about this. It actually is more likely to say, no, you're completely a hundred percent this is definitely true. You should definitely send that message that's awful.

And and it can get you trapped.

I see this, where both co-parents have found their trenches. They have their custom AI that then ends up separating rather than bringing them together.

That's

one thing that we're working on with with the BestInterest collaborative mode where we we have the AIs talking to one another. There's an intention of peace in

that relationship, which I think is really important. Otherwise you

can each end up sending these nonsensical messages back to at one another and talk over one another and no one understands what's going on.

Ksenia Muench (35:08)
I just had a funny vision as you were describing. You know the old robot game when the the robots fight. Do you know that one? It's a really old vintage game, but I just had a vision of that because it's like two AIs. It's no longer humans, it's truly just two robots that we just put and now we're fighting it out on that on the battlefield.

Sol (35:26)
I'm gonna have to turn that into a a comic. I I write a a comic Coparenting in Captivity and that'll make a really good comic, so I'll do that.

Ksenia Muench (35:34)
It's funny, but you're so right because AI is very validating, and I sometimes run ideas by AI. I'm like, okay, strip all the BS and just what is the read? I have to give a command not to validate me, not to say how amazing I am. I need to get the true neutral read.

Is it interesting? Is it doable? Is it something more neutral? I cannot stand ass kissing. So even with AI, I'm like, cut that out. Come on.

Sol (36:04)
One way to do it as well is, using a completely different account, pretend like you're your ex and try to describe things from their perspective and feed in the messages in reverse, right? Say this is the message

Ksenia Muench (36:16)
Okay.

Sol (36:16)
I received from my co-parent. That helps you get a different perspective and it

Ksenia Muench (36:20)
Okay.

Sol (36:20)
can be sometimes really helpful.

Ksenia Muench (36:22)
You know, it's exhausting. How about we take humans and you just use the gray rock method, just put it and and say like cut out emotions and here's what I want to say. That's it. Translate it for me in gray rock method.

Sol (36:32)
I agree.

I think that that sounds really good. And I I also think that the more that we as a culture, as a world, learn how to treat one another with respect and

to recognize

Ksenia Muench (36:45)
Yeah.

Sol (36:46)
and call out mental health disorders like narcissism for what they are.

Ksenia Muench (36:50)
Yeah.

Sol (36:51)
And also, like you said, high conflict divorce is actually just it's abuse wrapped up in the legal system.

So how do we spread that message and get it more recognized as abuse?

Ksenia Muench (37:01)
What was the biggest surprise for you in your experience?

Sol (37:05)
Wow, that's a big question. I was surprised by how much it's changed me. I don't hardly even identify with the man that I was in the marriage,

and and I really love who I am today.

I didn't expect that I would have so much gratitude for the journey. As much as it's been really hard and really traumatic,

I'm so glad that I've gone through it and on some level I just have a lot of gratitude for my ex and my family for the lessons that I've received along the way.

Ksenia Muench (37:35)
It's like awakening, right? It's the light switch. Some people stay in the victim mode. I notice a lot of high conflict personalities, that's what they decide to stay because they do not like looking in the mirror. But if you take that as an opportunity for growth, it's true. I always say I felt every single bone in my body was broken. And I had to rebuild and mold myself into somebody who I want to be today.

And I'm the same way. I'm so grateful for the experience, would never want to do it again. No, hey, I'm good. But I love the person I have become because the person just sees more, understands more. The depth that it gave me of life, how to be a better parent, how to identify people, how to to read people better.

Your life priorities shift and I like that shift like it's towards simplicity. I don't care about the the big crap anymore. I just want to enjoy life. You know, the simplicity of spending time with kids, doing puzzles, reading books and bitching about my dogs that annoy me sometimes.

It's interesting. I call it awakening, which sounds again woo woo and spiritual, but I don't think there's another way to say it.

Sol (38:40)
In some ways it sounds like we're writing a script for an advertisement for and also I

think that sometimes I do feel like I'm an advocate for it, because it can be a process of learning about yourself where you may have been a bit asleep before.

Ksenia Muench (38:56)
Mm-hmm. The interesting part, when I say it, people are like, wait, what? They don't believe me. I am actually such a proponent of marriage. I hope one day I get remarried, but to the partner that I know complements my life and I complement his versus just making it work, right? Because society told us so. I will always say if you don't have to go through divorce, do not do it. It's one of the

most brutal experiences you can go through. Your entire life is upside down. And if you go through high conflict divorce, there is a whole different layer added to that. But I'm also thinking, listen, if you made a decision that you have not made lightly, you are going through that. Use that as an opportunity to grow.

Sol (39:31)
Ksenia, thanks so much for being on with us today and sharing your wisdom. For those listeners that would like to connect with you, learn more about your work and your group, how can they find you?

Ksenia Muench (39:42)
It's very simple, just go to my website, www.ThriveAgainDivorceCoaching.com. I am also The High Conflict Playbook, which is a separate spot if you want to reserve space in the group intensive, which is www.HighConflictPlaybook.com And the final piece, I also host a podcast Uncoupled and Unfltered and Sol was such an incredible guest. I loved talking to you there. So if you're curious about that one, where I talk divorce,

dating, relationships and how to not only survive but thrive after. I know it sounds so cliché, but it's true. You can listen that one on any podcast platform. So thank you so much for having me. Always such a pleasure talking to you.

Sol (40:21)
Any last words of wisdom to impart before we say our goodbyes?

Ksenia Muench (40:25)
Yes.

You're not alone. That's the only thing I want to say. When you go through the process, you feel very alone. You feel very unseen, unheard, but you're not. Just find the group. There are so many resources out there. And the biggest thing, use AI. Google. How do I find resources to feel supported and seen? And you know what? That will tell you. Find people like Sol, find people like me. So that's that.

Sol (40:46)
I love that. Thanks for being on today. Have a great rest of your day. Thanks, everyone.

Ksenia Muench (40:49)
Thank you Sol.

Sol (40:51)
Thanks for joining us on the Coparenting Beyond Conflict podcast. To support our show, please subscribe or leave a rating. Links for all books and resources mentioned on today's podcast appear in our show notes or on CoparentingBeyondConflict.com. See you next time.

Sol (41:09)
The

commentary and opinions available on this podcast are for informational and entertainment purposes only, and not for the purpose of providing legal or psychological advice. You should contact a licensed attorney, coach, or therapist in your state to obtain advice with respect to any particular issue or problem.